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DC Comics Ongoing Discussion

I notice that most people that defend the Alan Scott retcons didn't care about the character before, so of course they've going to defend the changes. Alan went from my second favorite GL to near the bottom of the list, because stripping out his family (which is what they did, don't give me any BS about gay guys having "beards" making things similar, Alan Scott is a fictional character who was 100% straight for 70+ years) made him nothing to me.

They might as well have just made a new gay from the start GL, because thats effectively what post-2011 Alan scott is, a new character wearing the skin of the original. Outside of being annoyed and frustrated at the situation I have no feelings towards new Alan Scott as a character, he's just some random OC they've attached to the JSA for some reason. Of course the whole JSA is just absolutely fucked right now in one way or another, I'm sure that Lemire will make sure every JSA member is unrecognizable before his shitty run is over.

Also, related to the Alan Scott stuff, I need to point out that I think 99% of people I've seen online, even people that support things like Alan Scott and Iceman's retcons, actually hate the Tim drake retcons the most, because he went from having a great (if occasionally on/off again depending on the writer) relationship with Stephanie Brown to a tepid relationship with a random guy who has less character then Jon Kent's boyfriend (and that guy is boring enough to start with). Honestly, I'm more irritated in the Alan scott changes because I was more attached to the character, but I think the Tim Drake retcons were legitimately a real flop, especially because both Tim and Stephanie have a lot of modern fans so more people were invested in that relationship.
 
Again, maybe I'm missing something, maybe it's my biases, but I don't think it's an unreasonable take on a long-established character?

I think the key here is to better understand what real world people have gone through. I am willing to guess that the current status of Alan Scott's character is something that a lot of people have gone through based on my limited interactions with people who have come out later in life after being married and having children.
 
Alan went from my second favorite GL to near the bottom of the list,

Really, who's the top and bottom?

Personally, my least favourite is probably Hal, probably with Guy at second last historically, and either New!Alan or one of the post-Jess & Simon additions as second last.

, because stripping out his family (which is what they did, don't give me any BS about gay guys having "beards" making things similar, Alan Scott is a fictional character who was 100% straight for 70+ years) made him nothing to me.

IDK about nothing, but it certainly seems like an unnecessary loss given that the choices don't just boil down heterosexual and homosexual.

They might as well have just made a new gay from the start GL, because thats effectively what post-2011 Alan scott is, a new character wearing the skin of the original.

I'd've been up for that.
 
I think the key here is to better understand what real world people have gone through. I am willing to guess that the current status of Alan Scott's character is something that a lot of people have gone through based on my limited interactions with people who have come out later in life after being married and having children.

And a lot, though not all of those would have been people who had to fake being heterosexual (particularly OG!Alan's generation and earlier) in order to survive.

Honestly, I think my issue is as much a "tell versus show" problem (again similar to at least part of my issue with Barbara Gordon's "old sham"), where we're told that he's "gay now" with the implication that none of the older relationships were actually genuine as written... but they don't respect the history enough to actual show us any of his true history and evolution as they want us to see it. Which is only a problem because they used the "gay"/"homosexual" label rather than one of the other options.

I doubt I'll change anyone's mind on this, but can you see where I'm coming from in terms how I see the execution as poorly done compared to other options which would accomplish the same goal (validate his then current relationship with a male, which what little I saw of it was actually pretty good).
 
BTW, kirk55555's little screed against King above is mostly opinion -- wholly wrongheaded though it may be, IMO -- but some of it pushes frothing hyperbole into objective factual inaccuracy. For one thing, King most certainly did not turn Wally West into a "serial killer," nor does Supergirl murder anyone in WoT. Also, the charge that King has "never read a single DC Comic that he didn't write" is ridiculous on its face, since his stories are often steeped in the characters' history and lore. kirk55555 just doesn't like how he develops his characterizations from that lore, which is of course his prerogative.

Wally West killed multiple superheroes, that was Tom King's intent. The fact that later writers retconned King's shit doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Also, Tom King doesn't know or care about "lore". He didn't know that the "secret" of Booster Gold is that, while he started as an arrogant goof, he's grown into a hyper competent defender of time who is just a goof to the public and who would never do what he did in that Batman story arc, in fact when it comes to Time travel no one in the entire DC Universe has a better grasp at it then Booster except for his (spoiler alert) future son Rip Hunter. This was 100% canon even post New 52 by the time King wrote his horrible story. King also didn't know that guy Gardner is a jerk but at heart a good guy and an amazing boyfriend who would never fucking abuse Ice or anyone else. Also, for all intents and purposes King does make Supergirl a killer in True Grit 2: Outer Space Boogaloo. The fact the villain doesn't die does not change the fact that both Supergirl and the stupid kid were 100% ready to kill him. King also ripped off True Grit so blatantly with that story that he probably should have been sued, but lucky for him not many studio lawyers read comics.

Your obsessive defense of Tom King is at least partially built on denial of basic facts. You like how King writes his comics so you ignore problems that I've even seen other hardcore King fans admit to seeing.

Really, who's the top and bottom?


I wrote this list a few months ago in another thread, but its still accurate:

My personal (Earth) GL Rankings are:

1. Guy Gardner
2. John Stewart
3. Original Alan Scott
4. Jessica Cruz
5. Kyle Rayner
6. Simon Baz
7. Hal Jordan
8. DC Rebirth Alan Scott
9. New 52 Earth 2 Alan Scott

The Top 4 are all characters I really like and their positions can shift slightly, 5 and 6 are ok but I don't go out of my way to read them, and 7-9 I hate. I don't count the Far Sector GL as canon, but she'd be under Hal and above the 8 and 9 spots if I listed her.
 
1. Guy Gardner
2. John Stewart
3. Original Alan Scott
4. Jessica Cruz
5. Kyle Rayner
6. Simon Baz
7. Hal Jordan

For me:

1. Kyle Rayner
2. Jessica Cruz
3. Original Alan Scott
4. Simon Baz (though only as Jess' partner, not his early stuff)
5. John Stewart
6. Guy Gardner
7. Hal Jordan.

I don't count the Far Sector GL as canon, but she'd be under Hal and above the 8 and 9 spots if I listed her.

I've never read any Far Sector material, so I don't really consider her separate from the GLC in general, canon or otherwise.
 
And a lot, though not all of those would have been people who had to fake being heterosexual (particularly OG!Alan's generation and earlier) in order to survive.

Do you know this? Have you talked to people and asked? I only know two older people who have had previous lives. One is a transwoman with three children and the other is a man, who recently passed, who divorced (amicably) later in life. Both people have told me they were in love with their spouse's and the man told me he still "had feelings" for his ex. The man told me he had always been attracted sexually to other men but never felt comfortable coming out. And I never was close enough to the trans-woman to ask such personal questions. With this limited knowledge I am really uncomfortable making more generalized statements, so I assume you must have more knowledge than me to be so certain in yours.
 
I've never read any Far Sector material, so I don't really consider her separate from the GLC in general, canon or otherwise.

Well I just mean that I literally don't know if she's canon. Far Sector was a stand alone mini series done for a now canceled imprint, so it could go either way. I think she might have been in the background of a DC event comic I've read since then, but I haven't read a GL book since they cancelled the Jessica cruz/Simon Baz Green Lanterns comic, so I don't know the Far sector Lantern's official status.
 
Well I just mean that I literally don't know if she's canon. Far Sector was a stand alone mini series done for a now canceled imprint, so it could go either way.

She's been in the mainstream GL books for several years now, beginning shortly after Far Sector ended.

The continuity bit that I can't get over is that, at one point, Hal built how own ring from his own willpower that was separate from the other rings--and that seems to have been completely forgotten about.
 
Wally West killed multiple superheroes, that was Tom King's intent. The fact that later writers retconned King's shit doesn't mean it didn't happen.
No retcon was required to reverse a thing that never happened (though I'm aware that later writers have apparently softened aspects of what did happen in Heroes in Crisis). King did not make West a "serial killer." The deaths were plainly shown to be a terrible accident. Maybe King's not the one who doesn't actually read comics.
Also, Tom King doesn't know or care about "lore". [Much ranting ensues.]
Nothing about any of this proves your hyperbolic nonsense that King has "never read a single DC comic that he didn't write." Ice's entire narrative arc in The Human Target depends crucially on several key points of her established backstory. Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow includes numerous elements from the character's history, including her origin(s), Comet the superhorse, and even a nod to the Peter David "earth angel" version of the character. Again, "I don't like King's comics" ≠ "King has not read any comics."
Also, for all intents and purposes King does make Supergirl a killer in True Grit 2: Outer Space Boogaloo. The fact the villain doesn't die does not change the fact that both Supergirl and the stupid kid were 100% ready to kill him.
So, not a murderer after all. Glad we cleared that up.
obsessive
Oh, the irony.
 
I think almost every superhero has had a few instances where they've gotten so pissed they almost killed one of their villains.
 
One is a transwoman with three children and the other is a man, who recently passed, who divorced (amicably) later in life. Both people have told me they were in love with their spouse's and the man told me he still "had feelings" for his ex.

To me, neither of the above would be "homosexual", they would be bisexual or possibly some other variation with an evolving preference which is exactly what I've been advocating for all along.

But YMMV and that's fine. We don't have to agree and I think we should leave it there before one of us says something that we regret later.
 
I think the part of the problem with making Alan gay was they, to my recollection, ignored his past. I think Jennie and Todd were out of continuity at the time and there was no mention of Molly or Rose/Alyx. They rectified that recently with Alan and Todd discussing his closeted past.

They might as well have just made a new gay from the start GL
:ack: That's some awkward phrasing.
 
I think the part of the problem with making Alan gay was they, to my recollection, ignored his past. I think Jennie and Todd were out of continuity at the time and there was no mention of Molly or Rose/Alyx. They rectified that recently with Alan and Todd discussing his closeted past.

That was the New 52 Alan--no connection to the Golden Age Alan. GA GL AS came out to Todd in the big special following one of the Crises-- Death Metal, I think.
 
I notice that most people that defend the Alan Scott retcons didn't care about the character before, so of course they've going to defend the changes.
That's a nice little strawman you build there. Of course, it's bullshit, as I've been a GL/JSA/Alan Scott fan since the 90s, shortly after I got into comics, but at least it gave you material for several paragraphs of ranting.
 
That's a nice little strawman you build there. Of course, it's bullshit, as I've been a GL/JSA/Alan Scott fan since the 90s, shortly after I got into comics, but at least it gave you material for several paragraphs of ranting.

I said most people, not all. Also, its not a "strawman". Alan Scott was not a gay man from his first appearance in 1940 until September 2011. He had a long history and a family that precluded being anything but a heterosexual guy. He literally went to hell to get the soul of the love of his life, his wife, back. This isn't Iceman, who had a multi decade history of lackluster romance and basically no consistent romantic partner. This is like if the New 52 Superman got together with Batman instead of Wonder Woman and it stuck.

But some things we're just not allowed to criticize, I guess. To be clear I 100% support more diverse characters in comics, I just don't believe in doing it through retcons of long running characters, especially ones whose whole history precludes the retcons.

:ack:
That's some awkward phrasing.

:shrug:
I said "a gay from the start Green Lantern", I wasn't using the term as a derogatory or anything, although grammatically maybe I should have said "a new Green Lantern who was gay from the start". If the sentence was odd that was just me having a bit of a weird sentence structure while I was (admittedly) typing while annoyed.
 
To me, neither of the above would be "homosexual", they would be bisexual or possibly some other variation with an evolving preference which is exactly what I've been advocating for all along.

But YMMV and that's fine. We don't have to agree and I think we should leave it there before one of us says something that we regret later.

The thing is that we love to put labels and boxes on things. Sexuality is not an and/or and it is very much boxed by societal norms as much as biology or upbringing. It falls on a spectrum rather than neat little compartments.

It is very much like autism. We know now that it falls on a spectrum--it is not a yes/no condition. It encompasses a wide range of personalities and characteristics. We know now that the socially awkward student who got straight A's may have been on that spectrum as much as the person who cannot tolerate even being in social settings and doesn't even communicate with others.

Sexuality is very similar. Straight people can have same sex romances. One person's experience as a gay man is not the same as another person's and neither are their feelings.

I respect your opinions and I'm not going to debate this but I hope you can see that we are all different and there is not one way to be gay like there is not one way to be straight.
 
We know now that the socially awkward student who got straight A's may have been on that spectrum as much as the person who cannot tolerate even being in social settings and doesn't even communicate with others.
"We" may "know" that, but not everyone has to agree. Putting nonverbal individuals on the same spectrum as those who had no speech delay seems somewhat dubious. Social awkwardness happens for a variety of reasons including the fact that social networks are often dominated or controlled by jerks. Autism as originally defined in the olden days largely mirrors the symptoms of heavy metal poisoning.
 
Couple of things:

1. Tim Drake is not gay, but bisexual. Currently in a same-sex relationship, but still attracted to girls. So the argument about his feelings for his past girlfriends doesn't apply at all.
2. Though, as a Conan fan, I hold Roy Thomas in high regards, he can be a total dumbass and even asshole at times, as evidenced by his claim of co-creatorship of Wolverine.
3. Retcons of characters and their motivations have been a part of superhero comics pretty much since the beginning, and Thomas himself has done it a lot of the time. So, just because he wrote Alan Scott as a heterosexual character doesn't mean shit.
4. While Dixon was one of the best writers of the 1990s, especially for the "grounded" characters, he has grown into an even bigger dumbass and asshole than even Thomas is capable of in his worst moments.
1. Yeah, I'm aware that Tim was retconned to be bisexual. But that's the thing; prior to that retcon was there ever one single indication that he was attracted to men?

2. I don't doubt what you say about Thomas. I've maybe read a couple of comics from him if that. He seems like he does have a bit of homophobia going on (although in the interview I read, he said he has nothing personal against gays). It's probably largely a generational thing. Speaking for myself, I admit, growing up, although I wouldn't say I was homophobic, I will say I was not overly sensitive and/or insensitive about LGBTQ+ folks. That changed in college when I had some as friends and now. They are our brothers and sisters and sons and daughters and they should be welcomed in society and treated in every way as equals and not shunned or persecuted.

3. Yeah, you're right about retcons. Every single DC reboot like Crisis on Infinite Earths, Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis, Flashpoint, Doomsday Clock, and Death Metal (haven't actually read the last two yet, but I got them all, right?), allows DC's publishers and creators to make some changes and they have. Usually, these changes are to reconcile past events and the like, clean up continuity errors, bring back dead characters, and, yeah, make tweaks to character origins and the like. Superman, Wonderwoman, Hawkman, and some others were obviously rebooted and old continuity and the like cleaned away, but the core of all those characters was pretty much the same. The New 52 Superman that Grant Morrison created was kind of shocking to me at first. It was kind of deviation to what John Byrne did for Superman's post-Crisis origin, where he made Superman more human and more as a refugee escaping a very dark and sterile Krypton. Morrison's Superman was less optimistic and more alienated and much more brash and a social justice warrior, which is actually what the character was initially.

And, of course, James Robinson's reboot of the JSA characters on Earth 2 was far far more drastic than anything done in the Earth Prime DC books. And, again, I felt, due to the nature of that book and the deconstruction or re-interpretation or reboot what have you that was it's vision or mandate, that that was all fine. These were new characters that had the names and some of the elements of the original JSA characters, whose most distinctive characteristic perhaps was that they were all tethered to the time they were created, the pre-War late 30s.

But changing the sexuality of a character is a very extreme retcon imo. The original Golden Age Green Lantern was not an LGBTQ+ character. He was made one because the Earth 2 character was gay and that character was in comic book limbo while the GA GL was coming back. And the only reason the Earth 2 character was gay was because the Obsidian character, the gay son of the GA GL, was put in comic book limbo to begin with. So, really, James Robinson and Dan Didio (twice) were responsible for making the GA GL gay, something he never ever was before.

Also, I didn't think the retcon really followed logically from Doomsday clock anyway when they brought the JSA back from being written out by Dr. Manhattan. Why would re-inserting the formative event and reinserting the missing 10 years alter Alan's sexuality? It's akin to Simon Pegg's lame explanation that the change Nero made in the Abrams ST films went backwards in time to make Sulu gay after George Takei unequivocably said the character he played in the original Star Trek and the films was straight. But, y'know this is par for the course, as you said, for comic books. Sequential logic and especially science (king of drives me crazy as an AE sometimes to see how many writers and artists don't even bother to check some basic things out) are completely secondary to the story and the changes you want to make in a reboot.

4. When you say "grounded" do you mean like the Batman street level characters and the like?
I always thought Dixon was a solid writer and I certainly enjoyed his work on Detective Comics and Robin (I collected a lot of his run there and the start of Nightwing). I don't know much about the man in real life. I've read an interview with him, and, IIRC Denny O'Neil (RIP). Dixon said that while they were on completely opposite sides politically, they respected and liked each other and that he thought O'Neil was a great editor and boss.

I think I heard that he was part of that Comicsgate group. I've always been a moderate dem. I'm married to a Mormon Republican and we have more in common than not as far as our values. And, honestly, as a Catholic neither party maps on with my faith's social teachings, and, for that matter, even I don't subscribe to all my faith's teachings either. There are some things I agreed with in the old Republican party, particularly fiscal responsibility (although that is obviously not a priority anymore with them). So, I don't have a problem with people having a difference in opinion on public policy. I do have an opinion on how we should treat others as people and some of this Comicsgate stuff (and a lot of other more current stuff) I've read about is reprehensible and shameful. Threats, trolling, personal insults, sexism, racism, homophobia, just hatred, blanket statements and condemnation, from one side or the other, that's where I get off. It's wrong and it's incredibly damaging and we're living it right now in this country and were all weaker and poorer because of it.

As far as that Kinsey scale stuff, I've heard about it. My wife is the PhD psychologist so she knows more about it than me, but I'm not really interested or arguing about the plausibility of these changes based on psychology. I know there's supposed to be this sorta scale, but I just don't think it can be used to try to explain in some way, that the original GL AS or even Tim Drake were always LGBTQ+. To me, Alan Scott and Tim Drake were both straight white males based on how they were written and how the ones most responsible for developing them wrote them and I think that should have been honored and respected. Again, that said, I also think that Tim Sheridan's story was certainly worthwhile and legitimate one to tell (and I've read considerable praise about it). I just don't think there's any way to reconcile this depiction of Alan Scott with the pre-Death Metal/Doomsday Clock/Flashpoint version (where exactly did the gay GL AS appear? Did it happen after he returned with the JSA in Doomsday Clock on, or was it after Death Metal?).
 
2. I don't doubt what you say about Thomas. I've maybe read a couple of comics from him if that. He seems like he does have a bit of homophobia going on (although in the interview I read, he said he has nothing personal against gays).
I don't know if Thomas' attitude comes from homophobia, more from a sense of propriety. He doesn't like his work being overwritten. Even though he's done it himself. Crisis really dealt him a blow and you could sense in his post-Crisis work.
 
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