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DC Comics Ongoing Discussion

I hadn't thought about it before, but it is a little surprising they haven't done a Flash '90 comic, especially after the show's profiled was raised by the Arrowverse crossovers. They could even tie into the Arrowverse Flash and show us the crossovers from that Barry's perspective.
 
They are fun. Most of the TV/Movie comic book sequels are. I'm surprised they haven't made a Justice League with Superman '78, Wonder Woman '75, Batman '89 and Flash '90. I suppose they could use Shazam '74, Isis and Swamp Thing '90 too.

Yeah, I'm interested in the Superman '78 and Batman '89 books. So, what did you think of them? I've read Vendetti on GL and I thought he was a really good writer. And I still think Sam Hamm's Blind Justice, which he wrote in Detective Comics right before Batman came out, is a classic.
 
BTW, has there been any discussion on the latest Alan Scott Green Lantern series? Anybody checked that out and, if so, what do people think about the retcon making the Golden Age Alan Scott into a gay man?

The book by Jeremy Adams apparently got good reviews, but as a fan of the Alan Scott character from his return in Green Lantern Quarterly through JSA , I just do not like completely redefining the soul and life of the character like this. It seems like a real repudiation of the work of the writers who fleshed out Scott's personal life, primarily Roy Thomas and later Roger Stern and James Robinson, David Goyer, and Geoff Johns.

I thought it was enough for Alan Scott to be a well-respected Golden Age hero from WWII and I liked the fact that he was married twice, first unhappily and then very happily to his own Catwoman type character, Molly Mayne aka Harlequin. Now those relationships are totally redefined (or not defined at all, I have no idea how Johns and Adams have left it).
 
BTW, has there been any discussion on the latest Alan Scott Green Lantern series? Anybody checked that out and, if so, what do people think about the retcon making the Golden Age Alan Scott into a gay man?

...

I thought it was enough for Alan Scott to be a well-respected Golden Age hero from WWII and I liked the fact that he was married twice, first unhappily and then very happily to his own Catwoman type character, Molly Mayne aka Harlequin. Now those relationships are totally redefined (or not defined at all, I have no idea how Johns and Adams have left it).

I liked it a lot. It explores what being a gay man might have been like during the era. The book has Alan feeling very conflicted and feeling guilty and sinful for who he is. It doesn't negate his marriages as it takes place prior to them. Like many men of his era, his story will now be that he spent most of his life trying to live as a straight person. That doesn't discount his feelings for the women he loved--but, in the present he has come out presumably inspired by his son and that he is a widower so there there are no one's feelings to hurt.
 
I liked it a lot. It explores what being a gay man might have been like during the era. The book has Alan feeling very conflicted and feeling guilty and sinful for who he is. It doesn't negate his marriages as it takes place prior to them. Like many men of his era, his story will now be that he spent most of his life trying to live as a straight person. That doesn't discount his feelings for the women he loved--but, in the present he has come out presumably inspired by his son and that he is a widower so there there are no one's feelings to hurt.

Yeah, that's what I read about it. I think that's certainly a legitimate and powerful story to tell, but as someone who cared about the character and enjoyed him for what he was originally, I also think that the core of the characters and their written legacy should be respected, I don't think Alan Scott should ever have retconned for use in this story. The Earth 2 version was different enough that, story-wise, I felt DC was within their rights to re-interpret the character in the re-invention that was Earth 2. It was a pretty arbitrary change in that case with James Robinson essentially doing an Ultimates version of the JSA keeping some things and changing others. Robinson felt that since Scott's gay son Todd, Obsidian, was being removed from the DCU and that he was one of the few gay characters (at that time) that he could just make Alan Scott gay. It was pretty arbitrary but I guess Robinson also thought it would be an interesting change. Dan Didio signed off on it and Geoff Johns was called into the Warners office to explain that Hal Jordan wasn't the GL who was going to be a gay character.

The thing is, after Rebirth, writer James Tynion, I believe, wanted Didio to make the original Golden Age Alan Scott gay like his Earth 2 counterpart. The problem was that the Golden Age Alan Scott was never ever written as a gay character, expressing actual sexual love for his wife Molly Mayne. Furthermore, the man most responsible for the development of Alan's personal life, writer Roy Thomas, has said that Alan Scott was heterosexual and that he wrote him that way.

So DC has pretty much thrown the Thomas', and the other writers' depiction of Alan out because DC, I guess, didn't want to look like it was going backwards on diversity maybe? I dunno.

The thing is, there were other characters in the JSA at that time that didn't have well-developed personalities or personal lives. That is, that weren't married, didn't have any indications of women love interests, etc. In particular, people have mentioned Dr. Midnite, Johnny Thunder, and there could be others. Of course, none of these characters are as big a name as Green Lantern or the Flash. Geoff Johns has stated that you can't have the JSA without them (and I'd add in Wildcat who I really like too (got his action figure!)).

And, of course, the same thing was done to Robin Tim Drake too. The guy most responsible for his character development, Chuck Dixon, like Roy Thomas, wasn't happy with that either. Again, it doesn't jibe at all with the character's development and history.

I just think it's better to use either a character with a relatively blank slate or just to create a new character. I think DC has done a pretty good job of that. For example, I really liked Rucka's Batwoman Kate Kane and the Authority's Midnighter and Apollo. And now, of course there are so many LGBTQ+ characters, I guess I don't understand why DC insisted on drastically retconning Alan Scott and Tim Drake the way they did.

But, as Thomas and Dixon essentially said, they don't own the characters and DC can do what they want with them (although Roy Thomas thought that the retcon to Scott would hurt sales of that character's books and the like and would consequently hurt him financially, I don't think that has been the case).
 
I hadn't thought about it before, but it is a little surprising they haven't done a Flash '90 comic, especially after the show's profiled was raised by the Arrowverse crossovers. They could even tie into the Arrowverse Flash and show us the crossovers from that Barry's perspective.
Well they did have a tie in comic to those Arrowverse shows I believe.
 
It doesn't negate his marriages as it takes place prior to them. Like many men of his era, his story will now be that he spent most of his life trying to live as a straight person.

With you there. Honestly, don't actually mind that part.

That doesn't discount his feelings for the women he loved

I might be missing something, but AFAIK, Alan describing himself as "gay" rather than "bisexual", "pansexual" et al in the present literally does discount that he ever loved those women romantically or sexually as "gay" is defined as "a member of the male sex/gender* only attracted to members of the male sex/gender*"?

*
Let's not debate the differences between these, please. I'd like to stay at least slightly on topic if possible.
 
Yeah, but I'm specifically talking about a comic that follows up on the '90s Flash TV series.
It'd probably do very well.

I watched the Flash for a time, and I liked it.

But it just seemed, I dunno, just a little too light. So many characters that just overnight became crimefighters, like Jimmy Olsen in Supergirl. It just didn't resonate with me as a comics fan.

I watched Supergirl until the last season. I thought the most powerful season was the one with Agent Liberty and the persecution of aliens. I thought that was a really powerful allegory. I really liked Jeremy Jordan's Winn, Calista Flockhart's Cat Grant, and Chris Wood's Mon-El, but, of course, they eventually left the show. Generally I liked the characters enough, despite the departure from the comics that I stuck with the show. Who can't love Melissa Benoist and Jon Cryer as Lex Luthor? Eventually though, I'd had enough. I couldn't make it through the last season. I just think the show's writing had gotten hijacked by culture wars and I disliked the evolution of some of the characters. I just felt like the show had finally jumped the shark.

It did give us Tyler Hoechlin's Superman and Elizabeth Tulloch's Lois Lane. I've loved Superman and Lois.
 
I think you're talking about the wrong Flash, I was talking about the one from 1990 with John Wesley Shipp as Barry Allen.
 
I loved the original Flash tv show back in the day. I was very sad when it was canceled. But they’ve released it on Blu-Ray and it looks amazing, so it’ll be fun to rewatch.
 
I thought the most powerful season was the one with Agent Liberty and the persecution of aliens. I thought that was a really powerful allegory.
You thought correctly. :techman:
Who can't love Melissa Benoist and Jon Cryer as Lex Luthor?
Truer words, etc.
It did give us Tyler Hoechlin's Superman and Elizabeth Tulloch's Lois Lane. I've loved Superman and Lois.
And you're three for three!

(Though I gotta disagree about the "culture wars" bit. Never bothered me. The problems with Supergirl's final couple of seasons -- and they were considerable -- were fundamental ones of writing and conception, not reducible to anything so simple as "too woke.")
 
You thought correctly. :techman:

Truer words, etc.

And you're three for three!

(Though I gotta disagree about the "culture wars" bit. Never bothered me. The problems with Supergirl's final couple of seasons -- and they were considerable -- were fundamental ones of writing and conception, not reducible to anything so simple as "too woke.")
Yeah, those last two seasons just didn't do anything for me. I just couldn't go any further with the last season. I gave it a try, but I guess the formula, for me, went thin. Also, not as many interesting characters and, yeah, the writing.

I think it was good to end it when they did.

And, yeah, I was mistaken. I was referring to the Grant Gustin Flash show.

The Shipp one was entertaining from what I saw, but, like all expensive shows, it was cancelled. : (
 
There were a few good moments in Supergirl's final season -- mainly a Brainy/Nia time-travel two-parter that featured the return of the wonderful actresses who played young Kara and Alex, and the series finale, which was beautiful, emotional, and damned near perfect for me as a fan.
 
Yeah, that's what I read about it. I think that's certainly a legitimate and powerful story to tell, but as someone who cared about the character and enjoyed him for what he was originally, I also think that the core of the characters and their written legacy should be respected, I don't think Alan Scott should ever have retconned for use in this story. The Earth 2 version was different enough that, story-wise, I felt DC was within their rights to re-interpret the character in the re-invention that was Earth 2. It was a pretty arbitrary change in that case with James Robinson essentially doing an Ultimates version of the JSA keeping some things and changing others. Robinson felt that since Scott's gay son Todd, Obsidian, was being removed from the DCU and that he was one of the few gay characters (at that time) that he could just make Alan Scott gay. It was pretty arbitrary but I guess Robinson also thought it would be an interesting change. Dan Didio signed off on it and Geoff Johns was called into the Warners office to explain that Hal Jordan wasn't the GL who was going to be a gay character.

The thing is, after Rebirth, writer James Tynion, I believe, wanted Didio to make the original Golden Age Alan Scott gay like his Earth 2 counterpart. The problem was that the Golden Age Alan Scott was never ever written as a gay character, expressing actual sexual love for his wife Molly Mayne. Furthermore, the man most responsible for the development of Alan's personal life, writer Roy Thomas, has said that Alan Scott was heterosexual and that he wrote him that way.

So DC has pretty much thrown the Thomas', and the other writers' depiction of Alan out because DC, I guess, didn't want to look like it was going backwards on diversity maybe? I dunno.

The thing is, there were other characters in the JSA at that time that didn't have well-developed personalities or personal lives. That is, that weren't married, didn't have any indications of women love interests, etc. In particular, people have mentioned Dr. Midnite, Johnny Thunder, and there could be others. Of course, none of these characters are as big a name as Green Lantern or the Flash. Geoff Johns has stated that you can't have the JSA without them (and I'd add in Wildcat who I really like too (got his action figure!)).

And, of course, the same thing was done to Robin Tim Drake too. The guy most responsible for his character development, Chuck Dixon, like Roy Thomas, wasn't happy with that either. Again, it doesn't jibe at all with the character's development and history.

I just think it's better to use either a character with a relatively blank slate or just to create a new character. I think DC has done a pretty good job of that. For example, I really liked Rucka's Batwoman Kate Kane and the Authority's Midnighter and Apollo. And now, of course there are so many LGBTQ+ characters, I guess I don't understand why DC insisted on drastically retconning Alan Scott and Tim Drake the way they did.

But, as Thomas and Dixon essentially said, they don't own the characters and DC can do what they want with them (although Roy Thomas thought that the retcon to Scott would hurt sales of that character's books and the like and would consequently hurt him financially, I don't think that has been the case).

Couple of things:

1. Tim Drake is not gay, but bisexual. Currently in a same-sex relationship, but still attracted to girls. So the argument about his feelings for his past girlfriends doesn't apply at all.
2. Though, as a Conan fan, I hold Roy Thomas in high regards, he can be a total dumbass and even asshole at times, as evidenced by his claim of co-creatorship of Wolverine.
3. Retcons of characters and their motivations have been a part of superhero comics pretty much since the beginning, and Thomas himself has done it a lot of the time. So, just because he wrote Alan Scott as a heterosexual character doesn't mean shit.
4. While Dixon was one of the best writers of the 1990s, especially for the "grounded" characters, he has grown into an even bigger dumbass and asshole than even Thomas is capable of in his worst moments.

With you there. Honestly, don't actually mind that part.



I might be missing something, but AFAIK, Alan describing himself as "gay" rather than "bisexual", "pansexual" et al in the present literally does discount that he ever loved those women romantically or sexually as "gay" is defined as "a member of the male sex/gender* only attracted to members of the male sex/gender*"?

*
Let's not debate the differences between these, please. I'd like to stay at least slightly on topic if possible.
Emotions are more complicated than that. Especially with older gay people who lived most of their lives in relationships with person(s) of the opposite sex.

But I also understand this reaction. I felt very similar as a fan of BtVS, when Willow came out as a lesbian, and at the time I couldn't reconcile that with her deep relationship with Oz.

It is quite simple, though, when you consider the Kinsey scale.
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While a person with a category 5 sexuality might technically be bisexual, it is quite reasonable for such a person to consider themselves and identify as homosexual. And even that 0-6 scale is not truly as varied as reality. So, expanding the scale from 0-12, Alan might be an 11.

Of course, even that is all just about sexual attraction. Though it should come as no surprise to any grown person that the difference between romantic feelings and friendly feelings is even more fluid.
 
Of course, even that is all just about sexual attraction. Though it should come as no surprise to any grown person that the difference between romantic feelings and friendly feelings is even more fluid.

And IRL that's largely fine because people do often focus more on their current state and feelings than their history.

While a person with a category 5 sexuality might technically be bisexual, it is quite reasonable for such a person to consider themselves and identify as homosexual.

Fair enough, but it still seems to me that a writer using the term "homosexual" rather than something more inclusive/expansive to describe an established character known to have had straight relationships is explicitly rejecting what has come before, particularly given that the retcon was first introduced for the N52 E2 version which specifically rejected/retcon'd significant other parts of his history.

I have similar issues with N52's treatment of Barbara's time as Oracle as an "old shame".
 
I might be missing something, but AFAIK, Alan describing himself as "gay" rather than "bisexual", "pansexual" et al in the present literally does discount that he ever loved those women romantically or sexually as "gay" is defined as "a member of the male sex/gender* only attracted to members of the male sex/gender*"?

*
Let's not debate the differences between these, please. I'd like to stay at least slightly on topic if possible.

As a straight man, I don't really feel comfortable discussing the fine points---but it's my understanding (labels aside) that men and women who are gay have lived as straight in society for centuries. Happy, loving male/female relationships don't mean that the gay/lesbian person is entirely fulfilled; however, it doesn't mean that they don't love their spouse, or get things in the mood to have sex, either. This I know. If you want to know the more specific details then I'm not the person to ask.
 
And IRL that's largely fine because people do often focus more on their current state and feelings than their history.



Fair enough, but it still seems to me that a writer using the term "homosexual" rather than something more inclusive/expansive to describe an established character known to have had straight relationships is explicitly rejecting what has come before, particularly given that the retcon was first introduced for the N52 E2 version which specifically rejected/retcon'd significant other parts of his history.

I have similar issues with N52's treatment of Barbara's time as Oracle as an "old shame".
Outing an established character of the kind Alan is provides something to the work, though, that you don't get with a new or less defined character, like Dr. Midnite or Johnny Thunder, and that is exactly the character's history of heterosexual relationships, and it might very well be that reactions like yours are exactly what Tynion was going for with the idea.

Because a lot of those real people who come out late in life also have had heterosexual relationships, and they've had children. And they, too, have to reconcile these past relationships, decades-long marriages, with the new information of the person's homosexuality. A lot of people struggle with accepting their parent's homosexuality, and indeed question the validity of their past relationships with the other parent. These emotions are real, but it is an experience the majority of people never go through.

Having Alan come out as gay is probably the closest art can get to replicating this emotion for others, and it can only be done with a character like Alan, one with a decades-long history, who is considered of old age, who the audience has followed over decades, with decades-long friendships with other characters, with established heterosexual relationships, a marriage and even children. A character an audience already has a relationship to, that even an adult audience views as a heterosexual father figure.
 
Because a lot of those real people who come out late in life also have had heterosexual relationships, and they've had children...

Thank you. You've expressed this very well. This is what I wanted to say but couldn't find the words or clarify my feelings and thoughts on the matter.
 
Because a lot of those real people who come out late in life also have had heterosexual relationships, and they've had children. And they, too, have to reconcile these past relationships, decades-long marriages, with the new information of the person's homosexuality.

Okay, I guess if the homosexual relationship/preference is depicted as a recent development (perhaps even after the death of the older relationships, given Alan's longevity, then there's no real difference between him described himself as currently homosexual (because preferences absolutely can change), but to me if he describes himself as always having been homosexual, then that's still a rejection of the idea that the previous romantic relationships weren't genuine in a way that using other terms on the LGBT+ spectrum wouldn't.

Again, maybe I'm missing something, maybe it's my biases, but I don't think it's an unreasonable take on a long-established character?
 
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