Garak vs. Obrien, who is Bashirs best friend?

[Lynx]

What semantics?

To nitpick and see if Garak is only attracted to men, only to some men, to both men and women, only women or no one at all.

I don't think anyone was annoyed that you "missed it". Any potential annoyance was (IMO) due to you trying to consciously ignore it when making a point.

I'm not ignoring it. I'm just stating what I experienced while reading the book. I also stated that most of the book shows that Garak is mostly interested in women.

I don't know what that means.

What I mean is that while there is one site in the book in which Garak could be attracted to a male person and that is blown up to enormous proportions to show that Garak andBashir had a relationship, something which is not even hinted in the book.

While garak's affection to Palandine which is mentioned in several places in the book seems to be ignored.

Unfortunately, this is how many people see: completely ignore straight relationships, even if they are focus of the work, in favor of just teased (or even not) same - sex relationships.
For me, this is very annoying. After all, which one contributes t our species? This is not the main purpose of such relationships, but this is important. This is why, in my books, Kes stands against such things: she believies that a very strong frienship can give you just as strong a bind and gratification as romance, outside of the reproduction... But such relatiopnships has nothing to do with reproduction (now, this is a bit influenced by her Ocampan biology, but still). So, this little jump is not only for nothing, but it messes up with your reproductive system. This not only makes it useless and wasteful (for the Ofcampa, anyway). but also somewhat of a species betrayal. Now, Ocampa are emphasizing on it because of their unique biology, but the principle still stands. Bisexual people are treated somewhat better by them,. as they can still contribute. And Ocampa are usually too benelovent to actively apply this. But they believe in it.

What I wrote this for is not to attack it completely, but to show that people focus on such thigns too much. I hope you'II understand.

You're right about that!

Sometimes it does surprise me when people try to attach some of their own dreams and desires to characters in series, movies and books who aren't supposed to have such dreams and desires themselves.

However, since I'm a positive person myself, I do try hard to adapt to such trends by coming up with certain desires or affections for my favorite character as well, like making my favorite characters fans of the 20th-21st century musical ensemble Iron Maiden!

Sometimes we need some humor to lighten up our days!

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

To nitpick and see if Garak is only attracted to men, only to some men, to both men and women, only women or no one at all.


I'm not ignoring it. I'm just stating what I experienced while reading the book. I also stated that most of the book shows that Garak is mostly interested in women.



What I mean is that while there is one site in the book in which Garak could be attracted to a male person and that is blown up to enormous proportions to show that Garak andBashir had a relationship, something which is not even hinted in the book.

While garak's affection to Palandine which is mentioned in several places in the book seems to be ignored.





You're right about that!

Sometimes it does surprise me when people try to attach some of their own dreams and desires to characters in series, movies and books who aren't supposed to have such dreams and desires themselves.

However, since I'm a positive person myself, I do try hard to adapt to such trends by coming up with certain desires or affections for my favorite character as well, like making my favorite characters fans of the 20th-21st century musical ensemble Iron Maiden!

Sometimes we need some humor to lighten up our days!

Yes, Lynx. You're right.

Honestly, if someone wants to have a male human and a male Cardassian in a relationship, why can't they just create some Original Characters, rather than attach it to characters who doesn't have such things.

Or even apply it in your own fanfiction but don't force such views on other people.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I think there was definitely gay vibes in the first episode. It was never returned though, imo. Not sure if I agree they were lovers, but that idea won't trouble me, lol.

Garak was probably into Bashir, but yeah, it wasn't returned. Bashir's only into women as far as we know.

Bashir did consider Garak a friend (and was certainly fascinated by Garak's past as a spy) but nothing more than that.

Although I do think it's pretty funny that, in the novels, Garak ends up as the lover of Dr. Parmak, whom Garak once tortured. I don't know why I think that's so funny.

 

[Tosk]

To nitpick and see if Garak is only attracted to men, only to some men, to both men and women, only women or no one at all.

...I thought that was what we were doing though? How is it semantics to give examples when that's the point we're trying to make?

I also stated that most of the book shows that Garak is mostly interested in women.

I agree that the book focuses on his attraction to a woman. I never said otherwise.

What I mean is that while there is one site in the book in which Garak could be attracted to a male person

Not once. Twice.

and that is blown up to enormous proportions to show that Garak andBashir had a relationship

Not by me. I've only argued the facts as I see them. And I don't see Garak and Bashir having a sexual relationship. In my opinion they clearly didn't.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

...I thought that was what we were doing though? How is it semantics to give examples when that's the point we're trying to make?


I agree that the book focuses on his attraction to a woman. I never said otherwise.


Not once. Twice.


Not by me. I've only argued the facts as I see them. And I don't see Garak and Bashir having a sexual relationship. In my opinion they clearly didn't.

Go focus on the details rather than on the spirit of what is told.

The point is, the book gives a lot of time to describe Garak's attraction to a woman, which, even if not totally ignored, is mostly sidelined, while fragments that describe his possible attraction to men are highlighted. It is as if the people that do it desperately want to find confirmation of their own theories, while sidelining everything else, if not ignoring it outright (I am talking about different people).

 

[Tosk]

The point is, the book gives a lot of time to describe Garak's attraction to a woman, which, even if not totally ignored, is mostly sidelined, while fragments that describe his possible attraction to men are highlighted. It is as if the people that do it desperately want to find confirmation of their own theories, while sidelining everything else, if not ignoring it outright (I am talking about different people).

Who here has tried to argue that Garak is solely attracted to men? If his attraction to women is not disputed, what need is there to focus on an example where that is the case?

I myself made one joke reply about the lack of canonical evidence that Garak was attracted to women to make a point because you claimed that he was attracted to women and that there was no canonical information that he was bi or not.

I am not putting forth my own preference that Garak be a certain way. Only arguing the details as I see them. In the show, it is never stated explicitly one way or the other. In A Stitch in Time it is. That's my entire stance here.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

All right, so not you. So you are an exception.

You think I am immune to things I describe? To focusing on my preferences? I am not, and I know it. But I can't stop it in myself.

 

[Lynx]

...I thought that was what we were doing though? How is it semantics to give examples when that's the point we're trying to make?


I agree that the book focuses on his attraction to a woman. I never said otherwise.


Not once. Twice.


Not by me. I've only argued the facts as I see them. And I don't see Garak and Bashir having a sexual relationship. In my opinion they clearly didn't.

In that case, I think that we agree on most points.

I've actually started to read A Stitch In Time Again to see if I've missed something. It will be the fourth time I read it since I bought it four years ago. But it's a great read.

And I have to give you credit for the picture of Garak in a Queen jersey. Why not? It's a great band!
But I think the name "Iron Garak" has a little more edge to him as an artist!

 

[Laughing Dragon]

I don't think he would listen to either quite frankly. Not just because he is a Cardassian but also because they do not seem to have rock music in the future.

Ahem! Anyway, Obrien and Bashir? And if I had put favorite friend instead of BF maybe Garak would have gotten more votes? I wanted a bit more of a debate. Of a different kind.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Ultimately, Garak was gay (or bi, ...) the same way Spock was Jewish. The respective actors borrowed elements not written in order to bolster their performances, and knowing that gives a perspective on how the character evolved.

However, some caution is warranted: Nimoy was Jewish; Robinson played gay.

 

[Lynx]

I don't think he would listen to either quite frankly. Not just because he is a Cardassian but also because they do not seem to have rock music in the future.

Ahem! Anyway, Obrien and Bashir? And if I had put favorite friend instead of BF maybe Garak would have gotten more votes? I wanted a bit more of a debate. Of a different kind.

That's just the point! Rock music has been shamefully abandoned in Star Trek and I don't know why.

Just look at it: Riker is a jazz fan, Bashir had Vic Fontaine's program made for him with music from the early 60's, Harry Kim played in a symphony orchestra, Data was dabbling with classical music too and Tom Paris did seem to like early 60:s music.

Besides that-nothing!

It's like if the world ceased to exist when The Beatles got their break.

It's even more strange when TOS was created during the most intense period of rock music, a period when something new and interesting happened almost every week!

Was it Roddenberry who disliked rock music or his successors in the TNG, DS9 and VOY era?

So my conributions are actually a decent try to give rock music its right place in the Star Trek Universe.

And since there are a lot of people who like to put certain attributes, likings and desires on their favorite characters, why can't I make some of those characters rock fans as well?

The Star Trek Universe will be much more fun with some good rock 'n' roll here and there.

Just look at this advertise for some reeal entertainment a typical month at Quark's:



Followed up by even more exciting performances:




The Vortas performing songs by the 20thc century group The Mamas And The Papas, rewritten for the 24th century is a real gemstone.

Excellent songs like "Founder, Founder", "Gamma Quadrant Dreaming" and "Dedicated To The Founder We Love" are true classics.

Not too mention Vic Fontaine performing James Darren songs backed by Kes and The Kestrels plus Odo on occarina!



Now this would really be a boost for the whole Star Trek Universe.

 

[fireproof78]

That's just the point! Rock music has been shamefully abandoned in Star Trek and I don't know why.

It costs money.

That's why.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

It costs money.

That's why.

They could have gone bluesy. It is would have sounded cool on Vulcan instruments.

 

[Lynx]

It costs money.

That's why.

But what about the songs Vic Fontaine performed?
Aren't they made by Frank Sinatra and other artists from the50.s and early 60's?

 

[Lynx]

Ultimately, Garak was gay (or bi, ...) the same way Spock was Jewish. The respective actors borrowed elements not written in order to bolster their performances, and knowing that gives a perspective on how the character evolved.

However, some caution is warranted: Nimoy was Jewish; Robinson played gay.

But honestly, I don't find anything gayish in how Robinson performed.

And I don't find any gayish in Garak, neither in the series or in Robinson's book.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

I didn't see anything too, until some people started to claim otherwise.

 

[fireproof78]

But what about the songs Vic Fontaine performed?
Aren't they made by Frank Sinatra and other artists from the50.s and early 60's?

Likely due to the length of time between their production and DS9's release they were cheaper to come by.

 

[Frontis]

Even when Garak was attracted by Bashir, I fhink he was in love with Ziyal and if she wouldn't have been killed they probably had become a couple.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Likely due to the length of time between their production and DS9's release they were cheaper to come by.

Rock music of the 1960s broke a trend that had held for a long time: popular music was written for the young, bought by the young, and when they grew up, the music industry focused on the next generation. Not only did the 60s generation keep buying music into the seventies and eighties, the switch to CDs and digital remastering brought them to rebuy their entire collections. Through the nineties, record companies could keep exploiting their buying power to make money on artists from long ago, thus asked higher rates for that music. Sinatra, to an extent, could do the same, but much of Vic Fontaine's catalog was from the thirties and forties, not exclusively Sinatra. I could see the production spending a lot for "Come Fly With Me," in order to establish a mystique for Vic. However, most of the rest of his songs were probably cheap to get the rights to.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

That's just the point! Rock music has been shamefully abandoned in Star Trek and I don't know why.

Just look at it: Riker is a jazz fan, Bashir had Vic Fontaine's program made for him with music from the early 60's, Harry Kim played in a symphony orchestra, Data was dabbling with classical music too and Tom Paris did seem to like early 60:s music.

Besides that-nothing!

It's like if the world ceased to exist when The Beatles got their break.

It's even more strange when TOS was created during the most intense period of rock music, a period when something new and interesting happened almost every week!

Was it Roddenberry who disliked rock music or his successors in the TNG, DS9 and VOY era?

So my conributions are actually a decent try to give rock music its right place in the Star Trek Universe.

And since there are a lot of people who like to put certain attributes, likings and desires on their favorite characters, why can't I make some of those characters rock fans as well?

The Star Trek Universe will be much more fun with some good rock 'n' roll here and there.

Just look at this advertise for some reeal entertainment a typical month at Quark's:



Followed up by even more exciting performances:




The Vortas performing songs by the 20thc century group The Mamas And The Papas, rewritten for the 24th century is a real gemstone.

Excellent songs like "Founder, Founder", "Gamma Quadrant Dreaming" and "Dedicated To The Founder We Love" are true classics.

Not too mention Vic Fontaine performing James Darren songs backed by Kes and The Kestrels plus Odo on occarina!



Now this would really be a boost for the whole Star Trek Universe.

I remember Paris but they have not listened to anything post 50/60s but it was a nice surprise they listened to some rock. It would have been nice to see what future rock music would be like. Even some alien music. The closets to alien music we got.

Despites its comedic purpose... Rock opera maybe?

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The closest to being wild would be jazz. Even Worf called it noise when Riker introduced it to Alexander, like a parent would call your rock music. I do remember Data singing Bobby Darrin in an ST Film. Think it was 'Nemesis.' My head canon was that they looked so straight up 60's in OG was because they came across some old footage and liked the style. But then I would have to forget the absence of Rock music.

ETA: I forgot Cochran listened to rock. 60s though. Maybe it was such a dark future that no one could make anymore, lol. Lol, at Geordi and Riker telling him to turn it down like your parents. Ok it WAS a bit loud.

In DS9 Odo and Kira were given a flower from a hippy and they looked WTF? But they were aliens. Youd think it would be a big part of earth history since the revolution was very much attached to the Civil Rights movement.

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Devils music? But most humans in the future seemed to be atheists. Partly joking. I was raised by a Catholic mother, and she did not mind rocking out with me at times.

Was not a big fan of the Kelvin Timeline but they did at least play rock music, well Kirk did, post 60's like the Beastie Boys. He seemed to be the only one that knew what it was. The joke being it must be classical.

Garak was probably into Bashir, but yeah, it wasn't returned. Bashir's only into women as far as we know.

Bashir did consider Garak a friend (and was certainly fascinated by Garak's past as a spy) but nothing more than that.

Although I do think it's pretty funny that, in the novels, Garak ends up as the lover of Dr. Parmak, whom Garak once tortured. I don't know why I think that's so funny.

I feel about that is that Garak is F*ed up (I like him) and Parmak is stupid. But they are Cardassians. And they seem really hard on the whole.

Even when Garak was attracted by Bashir, I fhink he was in love with Ziyal and if she wouldn't have been killed they probably had become a couple.

If they did it would have been a bad one IMHO. They had no chemistry. At least to me.

RE: Fanworks. OC's in actual already established properties are usually boring and considered Mary Sues or Marty Stus. I think it's fine to write this stuff. It's not hurting anyone.