Brainstorm - Starfleet Marines (alittle different)

[evilchumlee]

If there are no lower ranks, then there's no distinction.

Which was kind of the point? There is no distinction at the lower level. After enlisting and going into security (or potentially other departments) and gaining some experience, one can apply for what is essentially special forces.

As far as I know, and I could be wrong, but militaries don't recruit people directly into special forces?

No, that's Starfleet Intelligence.

There's some overlap in missions, but I would generally put Starfleet Intelligence as being more focused on external threats while Starfleet Security is more focused on internal. If we're going to compare to the US, I feel like Starfleet Security is closer to Homeland Security, while Starfleet Intelligence is closer to the CIA. It's by no means an exact analogy and there are definitely also civilian organizations (we know Federation Security by name).

In the field on board starships and to a certain extent on bases, yes. But there needs to be an agency to coordinate base fence and force protection on a fleet-level and that's Starfleet Security.

That was why I suggested the third department that's under the fleet. It could also be Starfleet Security, it just doesn't ever really seem to be portrayed that way. Starfleet Security tends to be portrayed as something more of a shadowy, intelligence-type organization rather than Space Police.

IMO, if you're not going to do it properly, then there's no point in doing it all.

I don't think "2024 US Marines in Space" is necessarily "doing it properly"? The point in having a slightly different rank system for these Marines is just to make them stand out from the fleet (and to factor in the one single term we ever heard a different rank in "Colonel West".)

The vast majority of junior personnel would be transfers from other departments and services, initially Security/Tactical with a few pilots and engineers for flavour, particularly in complex but small operations.

I would assume that they attend Warrant Officer School/Training if they decide to transfer to the Marines for the duration of their service, rather than returning to their official billet at the end of the mission.

I'm down with this. I feel like this is generally what i've been saying all along.

Marine Warrant Officers are specialists in ground combat, there almost certainly Aviation Warrant Officers flying some of support craft and honestly I'd be fine with replacing (Chief) Petty Officers with Warrant Officers generally in Starfleet service as the message should be the same regardless.

For sure. Maybe edit my previous to statement that these Warrant Officer Marines are specialists in combat, further specializing within their role in contrast to the vast majority of Starfleet, who tend to receive some combat training but it is not their focus.

With the exception of Aviation Warrant Officers in the US Army (and even they complete a fairly grueling training regime comparable to many non-US commissioned officer programs), prospective warrant officers of either type have years of service experience before applying.

That was my intent here. My proposed Marines are not a huge organization. They're a small, specialized force of highly trained combat specialists. They wouldn't have "random grunt" enlist right into it. They're the elite of Starfleet, in terms of combat and tactics.

Really?

Because again apart from Aviation Warrant Officers who can be direct entry), every warrant officer in US or Commonwealth service at least some enlisted service.

I think you misunderstood what I saying. There is no specific required rank, as in being promoted to X rank grade is a prerequisite for becoming a Warrant Officer. From what I can gather, there are criteria for years of service and being able to demonstrate skills in the specialization. That's exactly what i'm proposing here... Starfleet NCO's enlist, serve for awhile, do their thing and eventually may choose to apply for a transfer into the Marines.

If they're exclusively equal to commissioned officers, then there's zero point in having more than one (equivalent to an Ensign) and just buying into the academic elitest BS of early TNG, PRO and DSC/SNW.

[/QUOTE]

This is probably the biggest disconnect we have because the "academic elitist bs..." I think is a fundamental part of Star Trek that can't be ignored.

Well, as you yourself regularly point out, tactical/security officers would have been acting as "soldiers" during the Cardassian War and a Chief Petty Officer (and even better a Senior or Master Warrant) could reasonably act as Department Head if several senior officers had been KIA.

Yes... but that's what plays into the idea that "NCO's are ONLY trained in their specialization" isn't really true in Starfleet. Starfleet is a universalist organization all around. NCO's might tend to be more specialized than officers are (also kind of questionable, most officers seem to be quite specialized in their field, but capable of doing other things).

Yeah, but the bridge/command training was explicitly something that wasn't a required part of their training or even needed for career progression.

That's not entirely true. It was made very clear in TNG that in order to get the promotion to full Commander, bridge/command training was absolutely required.

Now... a fair criticism there may be Starfleet's training standards, as in the case of Troi her "training" to become a Commander was "pass a single, subjective test to Commander Riker's satisfaction"... which mostly boiled down to "willing to order someone to their death".

But... the requirement is certainly there. HOWEVER, and this is where the "Starfleet isn't really a military" and "things work differently" comes into play. The rank of Commander is only really important... if you want to command. Both Crusher and Troi could still progress in their careers without becoming a Commander... they could have stayed Lt. Commander's forever and still advanced in their field/career.

I mean, I could believe that Vulcans actually are the academically elitest douches that many fans insist that Starfleet is overall. YMMV.

It's fairly clear they are, and it is.

To be fair, that's a somewhat underlying reason for wanting to have a slightly different rank system/culture for the Marines... I feel like it's Star Trekian for them to almost looked down on by alot of Starfleet. They're the grunts "eating crayons" and running around practicing for war, and not doing science stuff like the rest of Starfleet does.

They are kind of the outcast military men in an organization that kind of doesn't want them and prides themselves on NOT being a military, which I think is also a knock-off effect of Khitomer... Kirk's Starfleet WAS a military, that did exploration and science stuff too. When it came to the point that Starfleet by treaty kind of wasn't really supposed to be a military anymore, Starfleet Command had to put in a fairly concerted effort to change the culture... really promoting the whole academic elitist thing to shift away from being military minded... but the Admiralty knew that they still needed Starfleet for military things, so while they're publicly training the fleet to be all "peace love and science!", they're also quietly building a military force, but they did alittle bit too good of a job promoting the "not a military" message that it went from being lip service to the Accords to being... the overall culture of Starfleet.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

As far as I know, and I could be wrong, but militaries don't recruit people directly into special forces?

The US does to a limited extent, but even there you're restricted to non-deployable status until you meet the minimum criteria for NCO rank.

The "big three" Commonwealth armed forces recruit their "special forces" from serving military units for the most part, though the Royal Marine Commandos are a partial exception in being a "special operations capable" force that isn't officially "special forces" in the "black ops" sense, but are still specialist forces.

There's some overlap in missions, but I would generally put Starfleet Intelligence as being more focused on external threats while Starfleet Security is more focused on internal.

I agree with you to an extent on the second which is why your obsessive insistence that SEC cannot have anything to do with or involvement in ship/station security, despite clear and obvious to the contrary peculiar.

If we're going to compare to the US, I feel like Starfleet Security is closer to Homeland Security, while Starfleet Intelligence is closer to the CIA

Kinda on the first one.

As I've previously noted SI is consistently shown as having both internal and external competencies so encompasses both the FBI and CIA.

That was why I suggested the third department that's under the fleet. It could also be Starfleet Security, it just doesn't ever really seem to be portrayed that way. Starfleet Security tends to be portrayed as something more of a shadowy, intelligence-type organization rather than Space Police.

It really is.

Reed, George Primmin and Michael Eddington all had deployed missions while part of Starfleet Security.

Starfleet Security is also shown as having the authority to both conduct and disband enquires on board starships.

I don't think "2024 US Marines in Space" is necessarily "doing it properly"?

No, and I'm never suggested that this version of the Marines are such a thing. In fact, I've consistently lobbied for you to accept a different term for them precisely to avoid this notion.

I'm down with this. I feel like this is generally what i've been saying all along.

Well, then you haven't been communicating it very well.

For sure. Maybe edit my previous to statement that these Warrant Officer Marines are specialists in combat, further specializing within their role in contrast to the vast majority of Starfleet, who tend to receive some combat training but it is not their focus.

Agreed.

I think you misunderstood what I saying. There is no specific required rank, as in being promoted to X rank grade is a prerequisite for becoming a Warrant Officer.

Given that Warrant Officer is a rank, or perhaps several, I'm not what your point is here?

Are you trying to say that you can enter the "Warrant Officer School" as a civilian? If so, then I kinda agree, but with the stipulation that if WO has any supervisory authority then several years experience and at least one promotion should be required before attaining that rank.

From what I can gather, there are criteria for years of service and being able to demonstrate skills in the specialization.

Yes, and the years of service would require spending time at at least one subordinate rank.

That's exactly what i'm proposing here... Starfleet NCO's enlist, serve for awhile, do their thing and eventually may choose to apply for a transfer into the Marines.

As I've said that's an option for surge capacity (discounting my preference to have the same type of subordinate officers in both systems)

This is probably the biggest disconnect we have because the "academic elitist bs..." I think is a fundamental part of Star Trek that can't be ignored.

Well, the production team of at minimum DS9, VOY and ENT would disagree with you, and the late-TNG teams and the PRO team appear to have mixed opinion on the topic, as several NCOs appeared in the former era, and the later established that civilians can be directly inducted into Starfleet as "warrant officers in training", so at most zigzag it.

Yes... but that's what plays into the idea that "NCO's are ONLY trained in their specialization" isn't really true in Starfleet. Starfleet is a universalist organization all around. NCO's might tend to be more specialized than officers are (also kind of questionable, most officers seem to be quite specialized in their field, but capable of doing other things).

The two times that we're told about NCO training (The Drumhead (TNG) and Starship Down (DS9) make it pretty clear that they are only required to train in a single specialism in order to be eligible to deploy with Starfleet. Obviously, some NCOs (O'Brien for example) chose to pursue training in additional subjects as well, which is perfectly plausible and understandable (the USN is largely not in favour of this, but it's pretty common in the Commonwealth, particularly on subs and patrol boats)

That's not entirely true. It was made very clear in TNG that in order to get the promotion to full Commander, bridge/command training was absolutely required.

Katherine Pulaski and Leonard McCoy would disagree with you.

Both Crusher and Troi could still progress in their careers without becoming a Commander... they could have stayed Lt. Commander's forever and still advanced in their field/career.

No, they could have been promoted all the way to Admiral without taking a Command course, we know that based on Pulaski and McCoy, neither of whom were qualified Bridge Officers.

It's fairly clear they are, and it is.

With the exception of BTS material and maybe a year or two of TNG, it wasn't until NuTrek.

 

[fireproof78]

Starfleet Security tends to be portrayed as something more of a shadowy, intelligence-type organization rather than Space Police.

Hardly. You have admirals come out for investigations, and collaborate with other branches. They also send out investigators, as Shamrock notes. So they are rarely shadowy, and often times we are seeing flag level officers initiating these investigations.

They are kind of the outcast military men in an organization that kind of doesn't want them and prides themselves on NOT being a military, which I think is also a knock-off effect of Khitomer... Kirk's Starfleet WAS a military, that did exploration and science stuff too. When it came to the point that Starfleet by treaty kind of wasn't really supposed to be a military anymore, Starfleet Command had to put in a fairly concerted effort to change the culture... really promoting the whole academic elitist thing to shift away from being military minded... but the Admiralty knew that they still needed Starfleet for military things, so while they're publicly training the fleet to be all "peace love and science!", they're also quietly building a military force, but they did alittle bit too good of a job promoting the "not a military" message that it went from being lip service to the Accords to being... the overall culture of Starfleet.

Which is where it gets a bit absurd, but if you want to take that tack then you work within the idea of science. I'll borrow a quote from Heinlein's "Starship Troopers,"

War is not violence and killing, pure and simple; war is controlled violence, for a purpose. The purpose of war is to support your government's decisions by force. The purpose is never to kill the enemy just to be killing him...but to make him do what you want him to do. Not killing...but controlled and purposeful violence. But it's not your business or mine to decide the purpose of the control. It's never a soldier's business to decide when or where or how—or why—he fights; that belongs to the statesmen and the generals. The statesmen decide why and how much; the generals take it from there and tell us where and when and how. We supply the violence; other people—'older and wiser heads,' as they say—supply the control. Which is as it should be."

The way to address the shift in attitude is through the application of martial discipline, of recognizing that force can be useful. And it's not like Starfleet doesn't espouse the virtues of martial arts. Yar is planning to attend a competition, with Worf betting on her to win. Riker and Worf both participate in another marital art. There is evidence that while being a "soldier" is not valued, being capable in a martial discipline does have value.

So, while they may not keep a large standing force they would have a Martial Command Force for overseeing training, development and application of military skill. It might be the Andorians who lead this way given their violent history and preference of hand to hand combat, but you could develop a force with the intention of studying and learning about the martial arts as part of their skill building.

And yeah, part of it will be PR fluff.

 

[evilchumlee]

I agree with you to an extent on the second which is why your obsessive insistence that SEC cannot have anything to do with or involvement in ship/station security, despite clear and obvious to the contrary peculiar.

I don't think i've ever said Starfleet Security can not have anything to do with ship/station security, only that they aren't the department that is in charge of ship/station security.

Kinda on the first one.

As I've previously noted SI is consistently shown as having both internal and external competencies so encompasses both the FBI and CIA.

Yeah that's good too. Realistically, I feel like Starfleet Intelligence and Starfleet Security somewhat suffer from agency bloat. They kinda do the same things.

No, and I'm never suggested that this version of the Marines are such a thing. In fact, I've consistently lobbied for you to accept a different term for them precisely to avoid this notion.

That's where I think we're just getting hung up on modern day nomenclature.

They're called "Marines" 300 years in the future.

300 years in the future "Marines" doesn't need to mean exactly what it means today, especially when given some background of why they're using the term. In this case, "Marines" is being used as something of an honorific, to nod to the traditions of the past when Starfleet had something that much closer to a modern definition of a Marine Corps.

They... are not that, but given it's Starfleet's only tradition when it comes to combat soldiers, they're using that. If it trips you up that much, just... call them something else. Although i've even already suggested that their official name as an organization wouldn't be "Marines". I'm largely using Marines as an easy word to use. I've suggest "Advanced Tactical", since it's something we know exists in Star Trek anyway. "Marines" would be something more of a colloquial term or used on a... I don't want to use the wrong term... "squad" level? I don't know. Role? "Marine" is a job within "Starfleet Advanced Tactical"?

Well, then you haven't been communicating it very well.

Apologies on that.

Given that Warrant Officer is a rank, or perhaps several, I'm not what your point is here?

Are you trying to say that you can enter the "Warrant Officer School" as a civilian? If so, then I kinda agree, but with the stipulation that if WO has any supervisory authority then several years experience and at least one promotion should be required before attaining that rank.

Part of what is tripping me up is that i'm not familiar with all the jargon used for modern military matters. That's at least a facet of why i'm trying to make this more... Star Treky than modern military. The modern military stuff are flashy buzzwords to make them look different.

No, civilians can not enter "Warrant Officer school", or at least I wouldn't generally think so.

Perhaps if I pose it as a question, it will work better. Once someone enlists into Starfleet (or hell just answer it from a modern military perspective), what rank needs to be obtained before that person can become eligible to become a Warrant Officer? Private? Corporal? Lance Corporal? If there as stipulation of "must attain certain rank" prior to being eligible to be a Warrant Officer?

Yes, and the years of service would require spending time at at least one subordinate rank.

This may have answered my question... so if someone enlists, is a Private and is promoted to Corporal... they may be eligible to become a Warrant Officer?

Well, the production team of at minimum DS9, VOY and ENT would disagree with you, and the late-TNG teams and the PRO team appear to have mixed opinion on the topic, as several NCOs appeared in the former era, and the later established that civilians can be directly inducted into Starfleet as "warrant officers in training", so at most zigzag it.

They toss the ranks out there, they just don't seem to actually matter all that much.

The two times that we're told about NCO training (The Drumhead (TNG) and Starship Down (DS9) make it pretty clear that they are only required to train in a single specialism in order to be eligible to deploy with Starfleet. Obviously, some NCOs (O'Brien for example) chose to pursue training in additional subjects as well, which is perfectly plausible and understandable (the USN is largely not in favour of this, but it's pretty common in the Commonwealth, particularly on subs and patrol boats)

I think that's fair.

Katherine Pulaski and Leonard McCoy would disagree with you.

No, they could have been promoted all the way to Admiral without taking a Command course, we know that based on Pulaski and McCoy, neither of whom were qualified Bridge Officers.

TNG "Thine Own Self" establishes that the Bridge Officer's Test is required to be promoted to Commander. We don't know that Pulaski and McCoy never did so (it's ALSO possible that the regulation changed at some point from the mid-23rd century), but the episode does establish that it is required.

Rather, it seems like bridge officer training is required to become a Commander... but you are not required to actually do bridge duty as part of your normal role. Crusher makes it fairly clear she just chooses to do so on occasion.

Hardly. You have admirals come out for investigations, and collaborate with other branches. They also send out investigators, as Shamrock notes. So they are rarely shadowy, and often times we are seeing flag level officers initiating these investigations.

They often have a secret mission along with it... although in all fairness, the Admiralty in general seems to usually have something up their sleeve.

The way to address the shift in attitude is through the application of martial discipline, of recognizing that force can be useful. And it's not like Starfleet doesn't espouse the virtues of martial arts. Yar is planning to attend a competition, with Worf betting on her to win. Riker and Worf both participate in another marital art. There is evidence that while being a "soldier" is not valued, being capable in a martial discipline does have value.

To an extent... Picard and Riker nearly had a meltdown when they were ordered to participate in some wargames...

So, while they may not keep a large standing force they would have a Martial Command Force for overseeing training, development and application of military skill. It might be the Andorians who lead this way given their violent history and preference of hand to hand combat, but you could develop a force with the intention of studying and learning about the martial arts as part of their skill building.

And yeah, part of it will be PR fluff.

^ "That's... why i'm here." - Obi-Wan Kenobi

 

[fireproof78]

To an extent... Picard and Riker nearly had a meltdown when they were ordered to participate in some wargames...

In fairness, we should always be careful in taking personal opinion as doctrine, especially when presented with other information, like the Enterprise-D consistently responding to military posturing by other powers.

 

[evilchumlee]

In fairness, we should always be careful in taking personal opinion as doctrine, especially when presented with other information, like the Enterprise-D consistently responding to military posturing by other powers.

I think that falls in line with the idea that Starfleet isn't a military, but will do military things when needed.

What I will say is that for absolutely certainty, it is not clear not everyone interprets Starfleet's mission in the same way. You have your Picards... and you also have your Jellicos.

Starfleet definitely tries to have its cake and eat it you. They can have Picard out there flying around in the Enterprise doing diplomacy stuff and talking about all those Starfleet ideals... while you have others doing more military things, maybe a bit more quietly...

TNG+ Starfleet makes so much more sense when you take it as an organization that used to be a military... is no longer supposed to be a military... but also realizes it needs to be a military regardless...

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I don't think i've ever said Starfleet Security can not have anything to do with ship/station security, only that they aren't the department that is in charge of ship/station security.

Yes, you do.

Because despite your insistence to the contrary, Security/Tactical is purely an internal department (and should be 2-3 IMO), so logically there is a flag-level department that co-ordinates those activities on an inter-command and "federal" level, which is logically Starfleet Security (given that we have actual on-screen evidence that it is and no evidence that it isn't).

Yeah that's good too. Realistically, I feel like Starfleet Intelligence and Starfleet Security somewhat suffer from agency bloat. They kinda do the same things.

There's a certain amount of overlap, yeah.

That's where I think we're just getting hung up on modern day nomenclature.

They're called "Marines" 300 years in the future.

And have been called that in English for nearly 450 years to date. The Royal Marine Commandos are barely changed from that force to date.

They... are not that, but given it's Starfleet's only tradition when it comes to combat soldiers, they're using that.

Only because you said so, the canon evidence is that their tradition is MACOs and Commandos.

If it trips you up that much, just... call them something else. Although i've even already suggested that their official name as an organization wouldn't be "Marines". I'm largely using Marines as an easy word to use. I've suggest "Advanced Tactical", since it's something we know exists in Star Trek anyway.

No, we know that "Advanced Tactical Training" exists, which seems to focus on intelligence work and possibly advanced ship-to-ship combat, so not really applicable to a ground combat force.

"Marines" would be something more of a colloquial term or used on a... I don't want to use the wrong term... "squad" level? I don't know. Role? "Marine" is a job within "Starfleet Advanced Tactical"?

My preference is Starfleet Security Commandos, given that it both fits the available evidence and purpose.

Part of what is tripping me up is that i'm not familiar with all the jargon used for modern military matters.

Well, it would help you actually read my explanations, rather than just ignoring them.

That's at least a facet of why i'm trying to make this more... Star Treky than modern military. The modern military stuff are flashy buzzwords to make them look different.

There's nothing particularly "modern" about most of the terms in use here, most either date back centuries or are obvious variations on the team.

Perhaps if I pose it as a question, it will work better. Once someone enlists into Starfleet (or hell just answer it from a modern military perspective), what rank needs to be obtained before that person can become eligible to become a Warrant Officer? Private? Corporal? Lance Corporal? If there as stipulation of "must attain certain rank" prior to being eligible to be a Warrant Officer?

This may have answered my question... so if someone enlists, is a Private and is promoted to Corporal... they may be eligible to become a Warrant Officer?

Depends how you want to use Warrant Officer to an extent:

If you're using it as a commissioned officer rank instead of Ensign, then the 17 months or so that it takes a civilian to qualify as an Aviation Warrant Officer seems plausible.

If you're using it as the equivalent of a senior NCO as Commonweath forces do, then about 15 years as an enlisted would be typical.

In my police based scheme, which omits the NCO ranks entirely but retains the enlisted rank of Crewman (though I'd fine with just using Apprentice or Probationer), then based on the LAPD, then I'd say nine years, but I'd accept that as the average rather than the minimum.

They toss the ranks out there, they just don't seem to actually matter all that much.

I disagree.

TNG "Thine Own Self" establishes that the Bridge Officer's Test is required to be promoted to Commander. We don't know that Pulaski and McCoy never did so (it's ALSO possible that the regulation changed at some point from the mid-23rd century), but the episode does establish that it is required.

Commander Pulaski specifically says that she's "not a Bridge Officer" in one of her early episodes and Commander McCoy didn't go to the Academy in the original canon.

Rather, it seems like bridge officer training is required to become a Commander... but you are not required to actually do bridge duty as part of your normal role.

The second part is certainly true.

I generally interpret Troi's implication that she had to take the test to make Commander at that point in her career because she was a solo officer, not a Department Head. Frankly she was over-ranked for her age at LCDR as is.

Crusher makes it fairly clear she just chooses to do so on occasion.

Agreed.

To an extent... Picard and Riker nearly had a meltdown when they were ordered to participate in some wargames...

And yet got into it pretty enthusiastically (particularly Riker) once they got going.

Perhaps they had something else planned and resented the detour? We certainly saw that on several other occasions.

 

[fireproof78]

I think that falls in line with the idea that Starfleet isn't a military, but will do military things when needed.

What I will say is that for absolutely certainty, it is not clear not everyone interprets Starfleet's mission in the same way. You have your Picards... and you also have your Jellicos.

Starfleet definitely tries to have its cake and eat it you. They can have Picard out there flying around in the Enterprise doing diplomacy stuff and talking about all those Starfleet ideals... while you have others doing more military things, maybe a bit more quietly...

TNG+ Starfleet makes so much more sense when you take it as an organization that used to be a military... is no longer supposed to be a military... but also realizes it needs to be a military regardless...

Which is where the debate comes from. For many, myself included, you either are the military or you're not. You engage on behalf of your government to enforce policy, by force if necessary, or you don't have that authority.

Yes, Starfleet tries to have its cake and eat it to. What ends up happening is a half hearted measure were you send senior officers on commando missions, security officers who can't practice basic muzzle discipline, and getting moved in to a military capacity whether they like it or not.

At least with your idea, regardless of the politics of it, there would be a department who's job it is to look at these things strategically, and say "We need to use ground assets here."

 

[evilchumlee]

Yes, you do.

Because despite your insistence to the contrary, Security/Tactical is purely an internal department (and should be 2-3 IMO), so logically there is a flag-level department that co-ordinates those activities on an inter-command and "federal" level, which is logically Starfleet Security (given that we have actual on-screen evidence that it is and no evidence that it isn't).

Perhaps i'm not understanding how things work in the real world, and i'm always happy to learn more.

We've compared Starfleet Security to several agencies rolled into one, FBI, Internal Affairs, etc. For the sake of ease, i'm going to role with FBI on this but feel free to answer in whatever you think the most appropriate way is.

I would say ship security/tactical is closer to military police.

Is there a modern day, real world agency that coordinates inter-command between the FBI and say, US Navy military police?

Perhaps i'm oversimplifying it, but I do agree there would be a flag-level department that coordinates these kinds of things... which would be... Starfleet Command?

Or alternatively, perhaps moving away from the military terms here to make a different comparison. Starfleet Security is the FBI, ship security is local police department. The FBI is the higher agency, and can have jurisdiction over a local PD when it falls under their purview, but is there an overarching organization that commands them all?

Only because you said so, the canon evidence is that their tradition is MACOs and Commandos.

Yes... acknowledged. This thread was me brainstorming about how I would create my version of Starfleet Marines.

If we're talking strict canon... Starfleet Marines do not exist. Flat out. They're just not a thing.

The entire point of this was creating Starfleet Marines, but without just bolting-on the US (or other modern day) Marine Corps.

I am going to call them Marines, but you are welcome to refer to them however you like.

No, we know that "Advanced Tactical Training" exists, which seems to focus on intelligence work and possibly advanced ship-to-ship combat, so not really applicable to a ground combat force.

It's somewhat of a stretch just to try to tie to something that existed in canon.

For the purposes here, it is possible for Starfleet personnel to train in the Marines -insert appropriate name- but not transfer to them.

My preference is Starfleet Security Commandos, given that it both fits the available evidence and purpose.

Totally reasonable.

Well, it would help you actually read my explanations, rather than just ignoring them.

There's nothing particularly "modern" about most of the terms in use here, most either date back centuries or are obvious variations on the team.

I've read everything. When I the jargon is tripping me, I mean it's tripping me up in the conversation... I may use a word in a more generic fashion that has a more specific military definition. We're kind of speaking two different languages.

I'm trying to preface everything with "i'm going to use x word, but I may be using that word in a slightly different than way than someone very familiar with military jargon would us it."

An example would be if I say "division". I'm not using that word as "a large unit of 10000-25000 men composed of several brigades or regiments commanded by a major general or equivalent", I mean "the action of separating something into parts or the process of being separated."

Depends how you want to use Warrant Officer to an extent:

If you're using it as a commissioned officer rank instead of Ensign, then the 17 months or so that it takes a civilian to qualify as an Aviation Warrant Officer seems plausible.

If you're using it as the equivalent of a senior NCO as Commonweath forces do, then about 15 years as an enlisted would be typical.

In my police based scheme, which omits the NCO ranks entirely but retains the enlisted rank of Crewman (though I'd fine with just using Apprentice or Probationer), then based on the LAPD, then I'd say nine years, but I'd accept that as the average rather than the minimum.

That all makes sense. I personally think I like the police-based one the best for this.

I disagree.

Commander Pulaski specifically says that she's "not a Bridge Officer" in one of her early episodes and Commander McCoy didn't go to the Academy in the original canon.

We don't know McCoy never went to the Academy. We know he went to 'Ole Miss for his medical degree... but also he may have came in as enlisted and became a commissioned officer later...

Pulaski says she's "not a bridge officer", because she's not. She's a doctor. That doesn't mean she doesn't have bridge officer training.

Tom Paris was adamant he was a pilot, not a medic, despite having medic training...

The second part is certainly true.

I generally interpret Troi's implication that she had to take the test to make Commander at that point in her career because she was a solo officer, not a Department Head. Frankly she was over-ranked for her age at LCDR as is.

We don't necessarily know that Troi isn't a department head. Beyond her direct duties as counselor, she seems to be involved with the civilian activities on the ship. I've always felt Troi was basically the Civilian Coordinator or whatever such a position might be called.

And yet got into it pretty enthusiastically (particularly Riker) once they got going.

Perhaps they had something else planned and resented the detour? We certainly saw that on several other occasions.

They were pretty clear that the argument was that Starfleet isn't a military.

I do think that Riker was probably MORE SO just being a good XO and backing up Picard... and once it became clear it was happening, he was fine with it. His resistance was just due to Picard resisting.

 

[evilchumlee]

Which is where the debate comes from. For many, myself included, you either are the military or you're not. You engage on behalf of your government to enforce policy, by force if necessary, or you don't have that authority.

I think it extends into Starfleet.

You have people like Picard, who are not military. You have others who are. The organization finds itself pulled in various directions because it's run by both people want it to be military and people who do not.

I wanted to note, for the reason, I tend to shy away from using the strict military definition of things because... well... it's not strictly military. Beyond that, Starfleet absolutely has civilian duties, so the talk of something like Starfleet Security being a mishmash of both military and civilian organizations is appropriate.

I actually really dig this conversation because I think it mirrors the type of conversations that would happen in Starfleet. I am not military... so i'm coming from a different perspective. I see that there is a need for Starfleet to have some military focused things.

 

[fireproof78]

I think it extends into Starfleet.

You have people like Picard, who are not military. You have others who are. The organization finds itself pulled in various directions because it's run by both people want it to be military and people who do not.

I wanted to note, for the reason, I tend to shy away from using the strict military definition of things because... well... it's not strictly military. Beyond that, Starfleet absolutely has civilian duties, so the talk of something like Starfleet Security being a mishmash of both military and civilian organizations is appropriate.

I actually really dig this conversation because I think it mirrors the type of conversations that would happen in Starfleet. I am not military... so i'm coming from a different perspective. I see that there is a need for Starfleet to have some military focused things.

I think that's a fair assessment, but it also is a limited scope on what the military does. The US Military regularly engages in more civilian type activities, including engineering, disaster relief, and weather tracking. There are usually more combined efforts on their part, even if the application is informed by that department's specific mission. The US NAVY has a full research lab, and has operated it for a 100 years, with radar being among the developments it oversaw in part.

The tendency is like Riker and Picard to downplay these aspects because it's either not expedient, or doesn't fit their view of what Starfleet should be. So, yes, you might not use the terminology the same way as terminology tends to drift and get modified over time and use. But, the centralized goals of exploration and defense are not mutually exclusive ones. That Picard and Riker look down their noses on this "minor province" doesn't change that they are still charged with defense. Picard even notes that the ENTERPRISE is "insurance" against a Romulan Battlecruiser spotted on their side of the neutral zone.

So, they may not be the full traditional military and the duties are emphasizing due to the combined nature of the service, but that doesn't mean there cannot be a department that does emphasize the martial and tactical, as evidenced by the war games.

 

[evilchumlee]

So, they may not be the full traditional military and the duties are emphasizing due to the combined nature of the service, but that doesn't mean there cannot be a department that does emphasize the martial and tactical, as evidenced by the war games.

That is absolutely true. Starfleet is just a... strange organization that totally is a military, but it's a military that really tried hard to not be a military sometimes. They truly do consider their military duties to be secondary to their other missions, and they don't really believe in the rigid discipline that a military would normally have.

But absolutely agreed though, they DO need this as well.

I like to try to understand the reasons why things happen, and while we don't know for absolute certainty, I do like to chalk alot of this up to the Khitomer Accords as discussed. I think it offers up a reasonable explanation as to why Starfleet is like, a military but not but is but not. It's an odd organization that started out in it's earliest origins as something definitely not military, but eventually evolved into something that definitely was military... and then became treaty bound to not be a military again.

And thus we get alot of the rules lawyering and PR names. "This isn't a battleship, it's an escort."

 

[fireproof78]

That is absolutely true. Starfleet is just a... strange organization that totally is a military, but it's a military that really tried hard to not be a military sometimes. They truly do consider their military duties to be secondary to their other missions, and they don't really believe in the rigid discipline that a military would normally have.

But absolutely agreed though, they DO need this as well.

I like to try to understand the reasons why things happen, and while we don't know for absolute certainty, I do like to chalk alot of this up to the Khitomer Accords as discussed. I think it offers up a reasonable explanation as to why Starfleet is like, a military but not but is but not. It's an odd organization that started out in it's earliest origins as something definitely not military, but eventually evolved into something that definitely was military... and then became treaty bound to not be a military again.

And thus we get alot of the rules lawyering and PR names. "This isn't a battleship, it's an escort."

Well, even with out the rigid discipline there is still a clear mission and need for a clear chain of command that we would expect, even without the traditional military aspects. I think it's why defining this combat arms department within Starfleet is so important because once you have that clearly defined role then it would become easier to work with the other departments.

In the US NAVY there are actually different categories of officers and how they operate within the overall organization depends as much on their rank, rating, and training, as well as their time in grade. They have unrestricted line officers, who can move fairly freely up a chain of command, and be promoted in to command positions of ships, etc, as well as restricted line officers, and staff officers, who are specialists or professionals in their own right, like doctors, counselors, etc.

So, even within such a military organization you have different standards applied for those in different departments. So, for a Starfleet Marine Department it would make sense for them to have unique aspects, even if Starfleet regards them as "not military," because they definitely are, regardless of PR.

 

[evilchumlee]

Well, even with out the rigid discipline there is still a clear mission and need for a clear chain of command that we would expect, even without the traditional military aspects. I think it's why defining this combat arms department within Starfleet is so important because once you have that clearly defined role then it would become easier to work with the other departments.

Absolutely... and Starfleet generally does operate like this.

So, even within such a military organization you have different standards applied for those in different departments. So, for a Starfleet Marine Department it would make sense for them to have unique aspects, even if Starfleet regards them as "not military," because they definitely are, regardless of PR.

Also absolutely.

That plays into why I did want them to make different than the rest of Starfleet, but also still being unmistakably Starfleet.

To switch gears a bit... I do think it makes sense to put this department under Starfleet Security. It makes sense going with the police-like rank structure and fits with at least some of the broad duties of Starfleet Security. I think it could make some sense that in peacetime, these forces could be used in a more law enforcement role... these might be the guys who deal with the Orion Syndicate when things get real crazy.

I'm also getting more comfortable with just... kind of not calling them Marines. It's 100% personal preference, I just also don't like Commandos. I think in my preference, I may stick with the idea that "Marines" is a completely unofficial name that persists just part of the legacy of this force. People call them Marines, they call themselves Marines in common parlance, but in no way is that an official title.

I think the official name i'd go for something a bit on the humdrum side, like "Starfleet Security Advanced Tactical Forces" or some such (I really do like the "Advanced Tactical"... it just... sounds Star Trek.)

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

A bit late responding to this, so I'll focus on the key points:

We've compared Starfleet Security to several agencies rolled into one, FBI, Internal Affairs, etc. For the sake of ease, i'm going to role with FBI on this but feel free to answer in whatever you think the most appropriate way is.

Fair enough. There's certainly at least one Starfleet department that is at least somewhat analogous to the FBI, given that Starfleet is a federal agency with law enforcement and intelligence elements.

Starfleet Security is the FBI, ship security is local police department. The FBI is the higher agency, and can have jurisdiction over a local PD when it falls under their purview, but is there an overarching organization that commands them all?

No, ship's security is the local field office of the FBI, because they still primarly enforce Starfleet regulations and UFP federal law not local laws (by default anyway, exceptions may exist)

It's somewhat of a stretch just to try to tie to something that existed in canon.

For the purposes here, it is possible for Starfleet personnel to train in the Marines -insert appropriate name- but not transfer to them.

That's fair, there are IRL parallels to that.

That all makes sense. I personally think I like the police-based one the best for this.

I do as well. IMO it captures the intent of Gene's "all officers" proposal in BTS, without the elitist connotations of an exclusively commissioned officer organisation, particularly one modelled on the US system.

We don't know McCoy never went to the Academy. We know he went to 'Ole Miss for his medical degree... but also he may have came in as enlisted and became a commissioned officer later...

That would be historically bizarre.

The reverse is definitely a thing -- deployed as an enlisted specialist and then went to medical school afterwards. Either way, he certainly spent some time at Starfleet Medical Academy to convert his medical degree into a commission, but TOS!McCoy is noted as been ignorant of certain cultural shorthand of the main Academy (or perhaps the Command School, specifically).

Pulaski says she's "not a bridge officer", because she's not. She's a doctor. That doesn't mean she doesn't have bridge officer training.

YMMV, IMO that's certainly the most obvious possibility.

I mean, would ChEng LaForge describe himself as "not a Bridge Officer", would ChEng Scott?

Tom Paris was adamant he was a pilot, not a medic, despite having medic training...

The first quote I was able to find was from Message in a Bottle and was actually:
PARIS: I am a pilot, Harry, not a doctor.
KIM: This is a temporary assignment, just till the Doc gets back.
PARIS: What if he doesn't get back?

Which is a somewhat different thing, and he's correct (at least according to Starfleet's preferences, though not necessarily IRL).

We don't necessarily know that Troi isn't a department head.

Actually we do.

Because Department Heads have a staff, which they manage.

OTOH, in the episode where her powers were suppressed, it was made clear that when she resigned, the post of counsellor was empty (Guinan -- perhaps jokingly -- suggested that she intended to fill it)

Beyond her direct duties as counselor, she seems to be involved with the civilian activities on the ship. I've always felt Troi was basically the Civilian Coordinator or whatever such a position might be called.

Which goes some way to explain why she's on the senior staff but doesn't make her a Department Head.

They were pretty clear that the argument was that Starfleet isn't a military.

And yet the description of what they say Starfleet is matches naval organisations that are currently (but not always historically) regarded as military organisations or at minimum legally authorized as military organizations.

I do think that Riker was probably MORE SO just being a good XO and backing up Picard... and once it became clear it was happening, he was fine with it. His resistance was just due to Picard resisting.

Mostly yeah.

You have people like Picard, who are not military. You have others who are. The organization finds itself pulled in various directions because it's run by both people want it to be military and people who do not.

Picard is not generally military-minded but legally he's whatever Starfleet regulations and Federation law says he is... which is clearly at minimum legally authorized to engage in military operations (cf the USCG or Japanese SDF).

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I'm also getting more comfortable with just... kind of not calling them Marines. It's 100% personal preference, I just also don't like Commandos. I think in my preference, I may stick with the idea that "Marines" is a completely unofficial name that persists just part of the legacy of this force. People call them Marines, they call themselves Marines in common parlance, but in no way is that an official title.

Why not Commandos?

It has some support canonically, and it basically describes the qualifications of classical Marines and their modern antecedents?

I think the official name i'd go for something a bit on the humdrum side, like "Starfleet Security Advanced Tactical Forces" or some such (I really do like the "Advanced Tactical"... it just... sounds Star Trek.)

Given that the potential for confusion with Starfleet Tactical (which IMO should have been the organisation blamed for the initial Pegasus debacle) and looking at both previous discussions on this thread and other vaguely analogous commands would you consider Starfleet Security Expeditionary Force or Starfleet Security Expeditionary Command?

 

[fireproof78]

To switch gears a bit... I do think it makes sense to put this department under Starfleet Security. It makes sense going with the police-like rank structure and fits with at least some of the broad duties of Starfleet Security. I think it could make some sense that in peacetime, these forces could be used in a more law enforcement role... these might be the guys who deal with the Orion Syndicate when things get real crazy.

The best parallel I could garner would be closer to pilots, and their job. By and large, their careers will not always involve a lot of actual combat with an enemy, but will involve a lot of training, consultation, and continuing to develop their skills. I borrowed this from the USAF website but I think it could be made to apply here:
Master of all aspects of advanced aviation tactical training
Plan and prepare for missions
Specialize in a specific aircraft and skill set
Lead and train a crew

Seems to me that this is in line with what you are looking for. A small cadre of highly specialized members of this department. Another example, if a bit dramatic, would be in JAG were a Marine sergeant takes command of an embassy protection detail, as the embassy is assaulted by locals. He takes command of the situation, and, of course, pays the ultimate price.

So, again, I think it fits what you are trying to do with this idea, as well as other non wartime duties that these personnel can serve in, including as embassy guards, specifical forces deployed alongside other assets, or border patrol to target specific problems, i.e. Orion pirates.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

To expand on my point about the "police rank based system" for the Commandos (I'm open to a similar to a similar system for Starfleet proper, potentially with some variation in timings, particularly initially):

Personnel will deploy to the field, though potentially to a low-risk "aid to civil power" assignment rather than a frontline one in peacetime, after 6-12 months at an appropriate Starfleet Training Command facility at the rank of Commando Candidate (Rookie"/"Probie") and will spend the next 12 months being practically assessed by a Leading Commando ("Corporal")

Upon successful completion of their field assessment period, they will be automatically promoted to Commando ("Crewman" or "Private") and authorized to undertake solo assignments. At this time, they will typically be transferred to a frontline assignment if they haven't been already.

After three years, they may apply for promotion to Leading Commando (this may involvement additional assessments, interviews or recommendations), and act as a Field Assessor and Acting Team Leader in the field if needed.

After four years as a LC, they may apply they may apply for promotion to Senior Commando ("Sergeant") this may involvement additional assessments, interviews or recommendations), and act as a Team Leader (6 personnel or less) and Acting Squad Leader (12-16 personnel) in the field if needed.

After several years as a SC, they may apply they may apply for promotion to Master Commando ("Master Sergeant") this will involvement additional assessments, interviews or recommendations), and act as a Team Leader (6 personnel or less), Assistant Squad Leader and Principal Advisor to the Commanding Officer at Department/Detachment Level.

NB: All personnel above the rank of Candidate derive their authority from a warrant authorized by the Starfleet Commandos chain-of-command rather than a commission, so would be considered "warrant officers" in the broad sense of the term.

 

[evilchumlee]

Fair enough. There's certainly at least one Starfleet department that is at least somewhat analogous to the FBI, given that Starfleet is a federal agency with law enforcement and intelligence elements.

No, ship's security is the local field office of the FBI, because they still primarly enforce Starfleet regulations and UFP federal law not local laws (by default anyway, exceptions may exist)

My point was to divorce starship security from the organization of Starfleet Security. This discussion is a bit frustrating... there's alot of pedantry going about that's making it difficult to convey point.

Let me rephrase with a different question. Does the FBI and US Marshals Service have a unifying command to coordinate the two? I don't believe so... there's my comparison. Starfleet Security I believe is a disparate department from "Fleet Operations" (that phrase being used a stand in for the department of that is command the... fleet.). Ship security in this case would be the US Marshals, a law enforcement arm of the fleet, not Starfleet Security, being two different service branches.

OR, another question, because I don't know. Is there an overall flag command that would coordinate US Army Military Police and US Navy military police?

That would be historically bizarre.

Maybe not in the future...

The reverse is definitely a thing -- deployed as an enlisted specialist and then went to medical school afterwards. Either way, he certainly spent some time at Starfleet Medical Academy to convert his medical degree into a commission, but TOS!McCoy is noted as been ignorant of certain cultural shorthand of the main Academy (or perhaps the Command School, specifically).

There is some indication that Starfleet was McCoy's secondary option. He was already a medical doctor.

I mean, would ChEng LaForge describe himself as "not a Bridge Officer", would ChEng Scott?

Scotty I could see, yes. He's a born and bred engineer. I do think there might be slightly different attitudes in the science and medical side of things. From the doctors we have seen, they're very much doctors first... anything else comes second.

The first quote I was able to find was from Message in a Bottle and was actually:
PARIS: I am a pilot, Harry, not a doctor.
KIM: This is a temporary assignment, just till the Doc gets back.
PARIS: What if he doesn't get back?

Which is a somewhat different thing, and he's correct (at least according to Starfleet's preferences, though not necessarily IRL).

Right but he flat out says "i'm not a doctor", which is technically correct he is not a doctor, but he does have medical training. "I'm not a bridge officer" doesn't necessarily mean "I literally do not have the skills to serve on the bridge"... it may well mean "I have no interest in being a bridge officer."

Actually we do.

Because Department Heads have a staff, which they manage.

OTOH, in the episode where her powers were suppressed, it was made clear that when she resigned, the post of counsellor was empty (Guinan -- perhaps jokingly -- suggested that she intended to fill it)

Which goes some way to explain why she's on the senior staff but doesn't make her a Department Head.

Lumped this all into one, but for one... we don't necessarily know she's not a department head. She is the ships counselor, but we really don't know what else that entails. She may well be the head of the psychiatry department... but also the idea that she may be in charge of the civilians on the ship would seem like it should qualify as a department.

And yet the description of what they say Starfleet is matches naval organisations that are currently (but not always historically) regarded as military organisations or at minimum legally authorized as military organizations.

This another semantics issue.

Starfleet is absolutely legally authorized to conduct military operations. It absolutely, objectively does serve a military function.

People within Starfleet regard that function as a secondary mission, subordinate to it's primary mission of exploration, science and diplomacy.

Actual humans don't necessarily always care to speak in legalese. Legally Starfleet is a military. That doesn't mean those serving within it who prioritize its other function will always refer to the organization its strict legal definition...

Picard is not generally military-minded but legally he's whatever Starfleet regulations and Federation law says he is... which is clearly at minimum legally authorized to engage in military operations (cf the USCG or Japanese SDF).

That's the pedantry.

Picard didn't say "Starfleet is not legally authorized to engage in military operations", he said "Starfleet isn't military" (paraphrased). From a hard factual standpoint, he is not exactly correct. Starfleet is, in fact, legally authoried to engage in military operations. Picard prioritizes the other functions of Starfleet, so he says it is not the military.

People don't always speak in hard, absolute legal and dictionary definitions.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Let me rephrase with a different question. Does the FBI and US Marshals Service have a unifying command to coordinate the two? I don't believe so... there's my comparison.

Unfortunately, they do.

It's called the Office of the Attorney General. They're literally both part of the same "department" and enforce federal not local law unless there are specific arrangements made with the local authorities (which did happen historically in the case of the latter, but has been largely obselete for over a century now).

OR, another question, because I don't know. Is there an overall flag command that would coordinate US Army Military Police and US Navy military police?

Is there a flag command that co-ordinates the local-level forces of two almost entirely separate agencies?

No, and that's not a particularly useful comparison anyway.

A better question would be is the investigative service and the patrol/force protection elements under the same flag command?

To which the answer is... it depends on which service and at what point.

For the Navy, the answer is often no, as the MAs (being historically being mostly Chiefs, with a few experienced Petty Officers if they're lucky) have been largely left to their own devices as far as "misdemeanor" crimes go, however they are still subordinate to the authority of any investigating federal agent for felony offences (Typically the NCIS Agent Afloat aka the Battlegroup Chief of Security).

For other US services, there is usually some sort of parallel flag or equivalent chain of command from the local level to the Head of that Service ("Department") and ultimately the Secretary of Defence.

Other countries have opted for a simpler approach. For example, in Britain, all military law enforcement functions are under the command of that services Provost Marshall, though the policing and (felony) investigatory functions are split into separate sub-agencies within that.

There is some indication that Starfleet was McCoy's secondary option. He was already a medical doctor.

Agreed.

Scotty I could see, yes. He's a born and bred engineer

But he apparently agreed to be Second Officer, which argues for the idea that he's content to be both. Potentially more so than LaForge, who is no better than fourth or fifth in command.

I do think there might be slightly different attitudes in the science and medical side of things. From the doctors we have seen, they're very much doctors first... anything else comes second.

Agreed.

Right but he flat out says "i'm not a doctor", which is technically correct he is not a doctor, but he does have medical training.

Very minimal medical training, certainly not enough to replace a physician long term.

"I'm not a bridge officer" doesn't necessarily mean "I literally do not have the skills to serve on the bridge"... it may well mean "I have no interest in being a bridge officer."

It could, but every example we've been given canonically favours the former option.

Lumped this all into one, but for one... we don't necessarily know she's not a department head. She is the ships counselor, but we really don't know what else that entails. She may well be the head of the psychiatry department... but also the idea that she may be in charge of the civilians on the ship would seem like it should qualify as a department.

As I said, The Loss (TNG) pretty much hangs on the idea that Troi is the only official counsellor on board, which implies that Troi is part of the Medical Department and subordinate to Crusher/Pulaski in a similar way that LaForge and Yar/Worf are subordinate to Data as the Senior Officer within the Operations Department.

Troi is certainly the liasion between the command staff and the civilian passengers, but there's no indication that she has any formal management authority over them, indeed I would expect only the Commanding Officer or current Officer-in-Command would.

Actual humans don't necessarily always care to speak in legalese. Legally Starfleet is a military. That doesn't mean those serving within it who prioritize its other function will always refer to the organization its strict legal definition...

No, but it does mean that they're never entirely or even mostly correct.

Picard didn't say "Starfleet is not legally authorized to engage in military operations", he said "Starfleet isn't military" (paraphrased). From a hard factual standpoint, he is not exactly correct.

From a factual standpoint, he's entirely incorrect.

Starfleet is, in fact, legally authoried to engage in military operations.

Which makes it a military by current definitions out-of-universe and IMO requires an actual definition in order to be anything else in-universe.

Picard prioritizes the other functions of Starfleet, so he says it is not the military.

Yes, but that's his personal opinion. The only person's opinion that might actually make a difference is the Commander-in-Chief, and that's not him, particularly when he said it.

People don't always speak in hard, absolute legal and dictionary definitions.

No, but that doesn't make them anymore right when they do.