What ships SHOULD they have used in the Dominion War?

[Arpy]

Where are you getting the 600 ships figure? Also we’ve seen numerous Nebula Class starships—see Memory Alpha. I think there are thousands of starships in Starfleet and probably dozens of Galaxy Class starships spread throughout the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

If we're critiquing the use of old ships, the Klingons are right there!

Klingons are big believers in "Tried & True".

Upgrade as necessary.

Ain't Broke, don't fix it.

That's why the Bird of Prey has been around for > 100 years.

 

[Arpy]

Klingons are big believers in "Tried & True".

Upgrade as necessary.

Ain't Broke, don't fix it.

That's why the Bird of Prey has been around for > 100 years.

Klingons also don’t have the scientific and industrial power of the Federation, I don’t think. It makes sense that they’d replace their fleet less frequently, especially as so much of their effort goes to maintaining their empire.

 

[Tomalak]

Klingons are big believers in "Tried & True".

Upgrade as necessary.

Ain't Broke, don't fix it.

That's why the Bird of Prey has been around for > 100 years.

And clearly so are Starfleet with some designs!

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

Its possible that they just prefer to set these pads to present a specific data/information to not have to clog it up with other less relevant stuff - since people evidently work in specific departments.

I really thought I remembered Sisko saying that he was not going to recommend quantum torpedoes for ships of the Lakota's class, and the Lakota's class name is never given. Since we do not see any other ships with the upgraded exterior, I take that to mean that, while there were certainly upgrades, something like taking Sovereign equipment and packing it into an Excelsior's hull did not happen in the original show runners intentions, even though new animated series and games have assumed it had.

The thought of getting away with less clutter in a device probably drives a lot of why Star Trek looks like its does.

'galaxy wings

I did not think this meant Galaxy class starships, but that the fighters are called "Galaxy Wings." That at least makes some of the dialogue fit.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

And clearly so are Starfleet with some designs!

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Just upgrade & update.

 

[Dukhat]

Where are you getting the 600 ships figure?

Yeah, and I could have sworn that just one of the Dominion war fleets (9th?) consisted of 1200 ships just for that fleet.

Also we’ve seen numerous Nebula Class starships—see Memory Alpha.

And yet surprisingly enough, we only
saw one or two of them in the Dominion war fleets.

What would have been nice (and definitely preferable) was if they had the time and budget to create a new CGI fleet for the series finale and final battle consisting of brand-new designs for the Federation and Klingon fleets rather than reusing stock footage from previous episodes. That way we would have seen a far more diverse Starfleet than the eight or so ship classes that they kept using (and maybe even a different class for the new Defiant rather than the aforementioned stock footage of the old one.) But alas, they cheaped out.

 

[Arpy]

^ oh yeah, the finale was infamous for that reused footage. I wouldn’t take it seriously.

Also we saw some parts of the fleets/battles, not all of them. There could have been “wings” of Nebula Class starships too just off camera. Itty bitty bit to the right of it maybe.

And if that doesn’t work for you, we proceed no further until you explain the EXACT SAME footage from previous battles. Including the stars.

Again, this is a thread about what ships they should have used. Ships that I think were there (just off camera) even if we didn’t see them. See my recommendations for which on page 1.

 

[Tomalak]

I did not think this meant Galaxy class starships, but that the fighters are called "Galaxy Wings." That at least makes some of the dialogue fit.

The trouble is that dialogue refers to the fighters and the “Galaxy Wings” separately:

NOG: Attack fighters in Theta formation. Cruiser and Galaxy wings at half impulse.

And…

SISKO: Attack fighters full impulse. Fire at will.

There’s also:

SISKO: Mister O'Brien, have Destroyer units two and six move in closer. They need more cover fire. And tell Captains Diego and Reynolds to stay alert. They may try to outflank us.

Which implies the Centaur is a “destroyer”, if we are to assume that Reynolds is the same as Charlie Reynolds referred to a few episodes earlier.

The killer line is:

SISKO: It is also an opportunity and we may not get another one. Ensign, have Galaxy wings nine one and nine three engage those destroyers. All other ships, head for that opening. Anyone who gets through doesn't stop until they reach Deep Space Nine.

…which is followed by the visual effect of two Galaxy-class ships firing on Cardassian Galors. The next line of dialogue specifically calls out the Magellan and Venture, the latter we know is a Galaxy.

The dialogue is really quite clear about the fleet composition, and it matches what we see, more or less, So on dialogue and visual evidence, the Sacrifice of Angels fleet consists of:

• Galaxy wings
• Cruiser wings (Excelsiors, Akiras?)
• Destroyer units (Steamrunners, Mirandas, Sabers? Possibly the unseen Centaur; Galors on the other side)
• Attack fighters

There don’t seem to be any Nebulas in these scenes, but there are in later battles. The Defiant is the sole member of her class seen. But the implied existence of the Centaur means there may be other ships the camera isn’t pointing at.

 

[Dukhat]

^ oh yeah, the finale was infamous for that reused footage. I wouldn’t take it seriously.

I don’t take it seriously in regards to the exact same ships blowing up in exactly the same way. I do however take it seriously in regards to the types of ships I saw. I can’t just squint my eyes and imagine that I’m seeing an Intrepid or Prometheus class ship in the battle that aren’t actually there.

Also we saw some parts of the fleets/battles, not all of them. There could have been “wings” of Nebula Class starships too just off camera. Itty bitty bit to the right of it maybe.

It doesn’t make much sense to segregate certain classes of ships in a separate fleet that we never saw. One type of starship is really no different than another type when all you’re doing is engaging the enemy in battle. And I find it unrealistic to assume that there was another class of ship just slightly off the screen that we didn’t see, because we saw multiple angles of the fleet in multiple shots.

And if that doesn’t work for you, we proceed Again, this is a thread about what ships they should have used. Ships that I think were there (just off camera) even if we didn’t see them. See my recommendations for which on page 1.

So if you’re going to go by that assumption (even though I find it unrealistic for the reasons mentioned above), then we can assume that all the ships just slightly off screen were Andromeda, Antares, Apollo, Bradbury, Chimera, Deneva, Hokule’a, Istanbul, Korolev, Mediterranean, Merced, Renaissance, Rigel, Sequioa, Surak, Wambundu, Yorkshire, and Zodiac classes, because they are all unseen conjectural classes Okuda made up for the Encyclopedia or listed on displays. So they’re all still unseen

 

[Arpy]

I don’t take it seriously in regards to the exact same ships blowing up in exactly the same way. I do however take it seriously in regards to the types of ships I saw. I can’t just squint my eyes and imagine that I’m seeing an Intrepid or Prometheus class ship in the battle that aren’t actually there.

That’s a choice. We didn’t see all the ships. The ones we saw in some shots weren’t there in others.

It doesn’t make much sense to segregate certain classes of ships in a separate fleet that we never saw. One type of starship is really no different than another type when all you’re doing is engaging the enemy in battle.

I’m not a fan either but the lines are there about Galaxy wings, destroyer units, etc.

And I find it unrealistic to assume that there was another class of ship just slightly off the screen that we didn’t see, because we saw multiple angles of the fleet in multiple shots.

But we didn’t see all angles and all ships in the entire fleets.

So if you’re going to go by that assumption (even though I find it unrealistic for the reasons mentioned above), then we can assume that all the ships just slightly off screen were Andromeda, Antares, Apollo, Bradbury, Chimera, Deneva, Hokule’a, Istanbul, Korolev, Mediterranean, Merced, Renaissance, Rigel, Sequioa, Surak, Wambundu, Yorkshire, and Zodiac classes, because they are all unseen conjectural classes Okuda made up for the Encyclopedia or listed on displays. So they’re all still unseen

Sure, if those are your preferred fleets.

 

[Dukhat]

Actually, what I prefer was if they had more time and a better budget to create new ships for DS9 from the get-go. But what they did instead was scan the few studio models they had available at the time into CGI, and get the low-poly First Contact ships from ILM. And no matter how you head-canon it away, that was all we saw, and it was supposed to be a representative example of the entirely of the ships Starfleet and the Klingons had at the time. It didn’t made sense, but when you have no time and little money, that’s what you end up with. And even: (Prodigy spoilers ahead)

Spoiler

the majority of Starfleet as depicted in PRO in 2384 only consisted of Sovereigns, Akiras, Defiants and the large version of the Centaur type. Thats not even remotely believable either, but there you go.

The bottom line is that yes, you can absolutely assume that there were other ships slightly off the screen, or other fleets with other ship classes we never saw. But what we actually did see was wanting, and it made Starfleet and the Klingons look hopelessly outmatched by a more technologically advanced opponent.

 

[Tomalak]

But what we actually did see was wanting, and it made Starfleet and the Klingons look hopelessly outmatched by a more technologically advanced opponent.

But this is a feature, not a bug. The whole point was that they were hopelessly outmatched by a technologically superior opponent, right from the first time we see the Jem’Hadar easily destroy the most powerful Starfleet ship class we had seen to date. In all the set piece battles they are outmatched and outgunned, but usually turn the tide.

That’s drama!

 

[Dukhat]

But this is a feature, not a bug. The whole point was that they were hopelessly outmatched by a technologically superior opponent, right from the first time we see the Jem’Hadar easily destroy the most powerful Starfleet ship class we had seen to date. In all the set piece battles they are outmatched and outgunned, but usually turn the tide.

That’s drama!

Except Starfleet shouldn’t have been outmatched, because they had about 50 different starship classes, many of them contemporary to the era. But we only saw eight, and most of those consisted of two types of old outdated ships.

 

[Arpy]

Actually, what I prefer was if they had more time and a better budget to create new ships for DS9 from the get-go.

Def me too (that’s why I started this thread) and I think this is most fans. Also why I started the thread, to hear what ships others would have liked to see.

The bottom line is that yes, you can absolutely assume that there were other ships slightly off the screen, or other fleets with other ship classes we never saw.

Hell, I think it’s necessary to. The fleets seemed to change their constituent ships within the series, let alone looking at others in the same era.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Except Starfleet shouldn’t have been outmatched, because they had about 50 different starship classes, many of them contemporary to the era. But we only saw eight, and most of those consisted of two types of old outdated ships.

That was part of the problem, they had variety of ship classes, but not enough Volume of Ships that are Hard Hitting "Combat Oriented" ships.

 

[Tomalak]

Except Starfleet shouldn’t have been outmatched, because they had about 50 different starship classes, many of them contemporary to the era. But we only saw eight, and most of those consisted of two types of old outdated ships.

And yet we also saw all of the most modern ships to date in those scenes, with the two exceptions of the Sovereign and the Intrepid, for obvious real-world production reasons.

Starfleet was outmatched because the Dominion simply had more ships. They usually outnumbered our heroes two to one, and/or had some kind of devastating special weapon.

One-on-one, Starfleet and Klingon ships often defeat the equivalent Dominion ship - Klingon birds of prey destroy Jem'Hadar fighters, to say nothing of the Defiant.

But the Dominion has the numbers of ships and soldiers. That's why Starfleet was outmatched until the Romulans brought their numbers to the table.

And even then it was only thanks to some heroic derring-do and an internal Cardassian rebellion that the Breen weapon didn't prove decisive.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Also, the Dominion had only 3x Classes of Starships.

The Jem'Hadar Fighter, which was what they fielded in massive #'s.

The Jem'Hadar Battle Cruiser, which was their common big ship.

The Jem'Hadar Battleship, which was their largest vessel, but they were farely rare.

 

[Arpy]

Also, the Dominion had only 3x Classes of Starships.

The Jem'Hadar Fighter, which was what they fielded in massive #'s.

The Jem'Hadar Battle Cruiser, which was their common big ship.

The Jem'Hadar Battleship, which was their largest vessel, but they were farely rare.

They had two variants of the Battle Cruiser we saw in the series (dunno if they were both in the war part of it), and two versions of the Battleship—including the super massive one in the finale guarding Cardassia Prime.

Presumably they had a lot more in the Gamma Quadrant.

From page 1 of this thread:

There are a couple of Jem’Hadar designs made for the games that I think would fit in nicely to remastered fleets, filling in size gaps and marrying different esthetics:

1. Strike Ship (a pointier variant of the Attack Fighter)
2. Strike Cruiser (a midsized ship between the Attack Fighter and Battle Cruiser)

Allies’ ships that weren’t in the battles include the Karemma, Son’a, and possibly Hunters from “Captive Pursuit.”

More curious are the Breen who I think only used the one ship design. Maybe that was the only one on par with those of the other powers?

 

[CaptChris42]

Yeah, and I could have sworn that just one of the Dominion war fleets (9th?) consisted of 1200 ships just for that fleet.



And yet surprisingly enough, we only
saw one or two of them in the Dominion war fleets.

What would have been nice (and definitely preferable) was if they had the time and budget to create a new CGI fleet for the series finale and final battle consisting of brand-new designs for the Federation and Klingon fleets rather than reusing stock footage from previous episodes. That way we would have seen a far more diverse Starfleet than the eight or so ship classes that they kept using (and maybe even a different class for the new Defiant rather than the aforementioned stock footage of the old one.) But alas, they cheaped out.

Fleets were 100 or 200 ships each, when generally mentioned, for Starfleet ships.
Combined fleets could of course, be bigger.

For the Nebula - there could be nearly fifty by that point in the war, easily.
And perhaps half as many Galaxies? Depending on if they tried to semi-mass produce them, post 2372.