Augments and the thing about the Eugenics War. Why are they still a big no no?

[Nyotarules]

I always chalked it up that the Eugenics Wars were so bad that Humanity would rather ban augmentation--and even the possible good that it could do--than take even the slightest risk of that ever happening again. There's no question that the ban was developed out of fear and paranoia, IMO, but I think it also says something about Humanity still having a long way to go in some areas.

I agree with the fear and paranoia as the basis but I'm surprised in universe other Federation alien races went along with it. Unless they had their own terrible experience with genetic engineering.
I checked TOS, the Space seed episode was a season before Journey to Babel which introduced the concept of a UFP. The ban should have been retconned to be a human only ban not a UFP one.

 

[Frontis]

One more note. It seems augments often have depressions, psychological, social and other problems.
It seems they're often lonely and not happy. A bad side effect...

 

[Citiprime]

I agree with the fear and paranoia as the basis but I'm surprised in universe other Federation alien races went along with it. Unless they had their own terrible experience with genetic engineering.

Well, per Enterprise, we know the Klingons almost destroyed themselves with the same technology.

There's an argument to be made the technology doesn't really work. For all of their superior abilities, "normal" humans are repeatedly able to outwit these genetic supermen. And, in the end, regular humans were able to win the Eugenics Wars.

• Kirk's experience was more important than Khan's intelligence, since Khan couldn't perceive a starship battle in 3-dimensions in the Mutara Nebula.
• For all of his intelligence, Bashir is repeatedly outwitted by Sloan's machinations and naive about Garak's cynical but realistic observations.

Also, on a philosophical level, the genetic engineering ban on an internal basis fits with the Prime Directive which applies externally. If the highest principle is preservation of the natural development of societies, then I can see a ban on the artificial intervention that attempts to circumvent the natural development of a species.

Moreover, DS9 shows this tech is not foolproof. For every Julian Bashir and Khan Singh, there's the "Jack Pack" where the doctor screwed up the genetic resequencing.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Moreover, DS9 shows this tech is not foolproof. For every Julian Bashir and Khan Singh, there's the "Jack Pack" where the doctor screwed up the genetic resequencing.

This is why you have rules & regulations for what you can genetically edit.

The # of modifications allowed, along with the type allowed.

When you try to add in a smorgasboard of benefits, more things can go wrong.

If you limit the amount of improvements, far less things can go wrong.

 

[Shawnster]

The 24th century had augmented people who ended up anti-social and requiring institutional level support.

Not entirely correct. More than one of the augments introduced in DS9's Statistical Probabilities did not show signs of requiring institutional care.

Further, when they arrived on DS9 they were segregated from the general population and housed, not in lodgings, but in a cargo hold. A cargo hold.

In other words, these augments were discriminated against for no reason other than they are augments. They were prisoners who did not even have the right to sleep in station quarters like normal people.

 

[fireproof78]

Not entirely correct. More than one of the augments introduced in DS9's Statistical Probabilities did not show signs of requiring institutional care.

Signs or not they were at an institution.

 

[UssGlenn]

I agree with the fear and paranoia as the basis but I'm surprised in universe other Federation alien races went along with it. Unless they had their own terrible experience with genetic engineering.
I checked TOS, the Space seed episode was a season before Journey to Babel which introduced the concept of a UFP. The ban should have been retconned to be a human only ban not a UFP one.

my head canon has most other advanced species already having improved as much as they can from from genetic engineering, some time in the past. That's why so many other species are stronger and live longer than humans. They have already pushed it as far as they can safely, so no problem banning it. If anything, banning it would prevent these upstart humans from getting more powerful than they already are.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Further, when they arrived on DS9 they were segregated from the general population and housed, not in lodgings, but in a cargo hold. A cargo hold.

Was it ever specifically referred to as a cargo hold? Or are you just assuming that it must be one just because it's a large space that has a couple of containers stacked in one corner that could easily be their supplies.

 

[Citiprime]

Was it ever specifically referred to as a cargo hold? Or are you just assuming that it must be one just because it's a large space that has a couple of containers stacked in one corner that could easily be their supplies.

This is the way the opening of the "Statistical Probabilities" script describes it:

INT. CARGO BAY/TEAM DORM​

The Cargo Bay has been configured into a kind of dormitory. Free-standing partitions divide the room into semi-private areas. There's a REPLICATOR against one wall, several WALL MONITORS, and a large TABLE and CHAIRS in the middle of the room. Alcoves in the corners offer separate sleeping quarters.​

We cut in to find an agitated man of about thirty-five, pacing back and forth and ranting half to himself. He's JACK, and as we'll learn, he's a maladjusted product of twenty-fourth century genetic engineering.​

Behind him, we see a beautiful woman of about the same age, luxuriating on a nearby couch. Her name is LAUREN, and everything she does exudes a strange sensuality. She's watching Jack with an elaborately patient air.​

Bashir goes on to explain that they were separated out from the rest of the patients because there's no "standard treatment" for their condition, and the doctors wanted to work with them specifically to see if they could find something that may work.

BASHIR: There wasn't much the doctors at the Institute could do for them -- cases like theirs are so rare there's no standard treatment.​

KIRA: I can't imagine it was a very challenging environment for them.​

BASHIR: That's exactly what Doctor Loews felt when she first came to the Institute. She got permission to separate them from the other residents so she could work with them.​

 

[UssGlenn]

This is the way the opening of the "Statistical Probabilities" script describes it:

INT. CARGO BAY/TEAM DORM

The Cargo Bay has been configured into a kind of dormitory.

But does that show that they are using the cargo bay set, and it's "actually" a team dorm room, or that it is a converted cargo bay in-universe.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

But does that show that they are using the cargo bay set,

Almost certainly, there are a limited number of standing sets available and the other similarly large sets would have been even more unsuitable.

and it's "actually" a team dorm room,

Given that it is referred to as such, this seems likely. Given how "internally focused within the group" they are a communal dorm is likely better for their needs than individual quarters that might not even by in the same section or deck.

or that it is a converted cargo bay in-universe.

Possible, but given that they seem to be happy with the arrangements (which including most if not all of the amenities available in the standard berthings) and the limited options available on the station I'm not sure how this would qualify as prejudicial conduct?

 

[The Wormhole]

The part I never understood about the "Jack Pack" is that their whole deal is there enhancements resulted in personality disorders that required them to be kept separate and isolated from the rest of society. While Jack himself as well as Patrick and Sarina exhibited personality disorders that would require them to be institutionalized, why was Lauren kept with them? She had no personality disorders. She was flirty, maybe excessively so, but is that really grounds to keep someone isolated from Gen Pop?

 

[UssGlenn]

why was Lauren kept with them? She had no personality disorders. She was flirty, maybe excessively so, but is that really grounds to keep someone isolated from Gen Pop?

I think the subtext is that it is excessive. But we can't actually show that on screen since the show has to be family friendly. Also if she, say, can't order food from a restaurant without sexually harassing the waiter, that's pretty debilitating.

 

[Reymet_2]

Also if she, say, can't order food from a restaurant without sexually harassing the waiter, that's pretty debilitating.

Hypersexuality, AFAIK, has never been a ground for institutionalization. Given her appearance, she would probably able to have as much sex as she wants without outright assaulting anyone. I think Kirk would be very glad to have her serving on the Enterprise.

In fact, even Jack could fit into Federation society (I can easily imagine him working for Starfleet intelligence or Section 31). Patrick and Sarina are the only ones of the pack who really need care.

 

[The Wormhole]

(I can easily imagine him working for Starfleet intelligence or Section 31)

Coincidentally, Behr once said in an interview he had an idea for an episode in which the Jack Pack would get involved with Section 31, though the fact that DS9 was ending and they were planning the final story arc meant there was no room to do such an episode.

 

[FredH]

There's an argument to be made the technology doesn't really work. For all of their superior abilities, "normal" humans are repeatedly able to outwit these genetic supermen. And, in the end, regular humans were able to win the Eugenics Wars.

• Kirk's experience was more important than Khan's intelligence, since Khan couldn't perceive a starship battle in 3-dimensions in the Mutara Nebula.
• For all of his intelligence, Bashir is repeatedly outwitted by Sloan's machinations and naive about Garak's cynical but realistic observations.

Although… I can’t help thinking that “normal” humans keep winning in these situations because the authors say so, not because they “actually” would. Khan should be able to visualize three-dimensional space combat, rather than turning it into Star Fleet Battles. The only real reason he doesn’t is that Kirk is the hero and thus has been declared the winner; Kirk wins in “Space Seed” for exactly the same reason — given what we’ve been told in the episode, Khan should wipe the floor with him.

(Bashir, yeah, naïveté is a character trait of his.)

 

[Citiprime]

Although… I can’t help thinking that “normal” humans keep winning in these situations because the authors say so, not because they “actually” would.

Star Trek’s position going all the way back to “Space Seed” is the flaw in all of this is that “superior ability breeds superior ambition.” And I think a part of the moral they try to get across with this is that those abilities, if not kept in check, can lead to a blindness in arrogance.

There’s an early episode of Columbo where he explains to the killer in the “gotcha” moment that she’s really, really smart, but her ambition (and lack of conscience) gave her disadvantages in not being able to understand others and underestimating their ability to be better than her in actions.

Beyond Khan and Bashir, that sort of thing carries over to the “Jack Pack” too. They are so sure about their predictions about the war on a macro level. But, as Bashir points out in the end, they didn’t even understand the people within their own group to act in ways beyond their expectations (i.e., Sarina freeing Bashir so he could stop them), and it blinds them in ways that made their predictive abilities flawed.

 

[Discovery McDiscoveryFace]

Hypersexuality, AFAIK, has never been a ground for institutionalization. Given her appearance, she would probably able to have as much sex as she wants without outright assaulting anyone. I think Kirk would be very glad to have her serving on the Enterprise.

In fact, even Jack could fit into Federation society (I can easily imagine him working for Starfleet intelligence or Section 31). Patrick and Sarina are the only ones of the pack who really need care.

Lauren always reminded me of those who have reduced or absent inhibition as a result of head injuries. This can be multifactorial but sexualithy is frequently a component too.

 

[Nyotarules]

Hypersexuality, AFAIK, has never been a ground for institutionalization. Given her appearance, she would probably able to have as much sex as she wants without outright assaulting anyone. I think Kirk would be very glad to have her serving on the Enterprise.

In fact, even Jack could fit into Federation society (I can easily imagine him working for Starfleet intelligence or Section 31). Patrick and Sarina are the only ones of the pack who really need care.

Jack was a psychopath, threatening to break Sarina's neck if Bashir did not do want he wanted.

 

[Reymet_2]

Jack was a psychopath, threatening to break Sarina's neck if Bashir did not do want he wanted.

As I have said, he would have been a good operative for Section 31.