Code Of Honor: What Do You Think?
- Thread starter Moviefan2k4
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I don't think it was as racist as many people say it was. I think it was more a misguided effort to create a homogeneous alien species. So I see it as a typical first season episode, a symptom of TNG's 2-years long effort to leave TOS's shadow and speak in it's own voice. Like "The Naked Now", "Angel One", and "When the Bough Breaks".
But it's still not that great.
But it's still not that great.
I don't think it was as racist as many people say it was. I think it was more a misguided effort to create a homogeneous alien species. So I see it as a typical first season episode, a symptom of TNG's 2-years long effort to leave TOS's shadow and speak in it's own voice. Like "The Naked Now", "Angel One", and "When the Bough Breaks".
But it's still not that great.
Season 2 was a good compromise: TNG balanced the tone between the franchise's space opera/"grandeur of the universe" roots and establishing its own identity. Later seasons were increasingly martial in bearing...which the series maintained during the jump to - and right up until the end of - DS9. One reason I rank Voyager above The Wacky Morally Ambiguous Misadventures of Sisko and co. as a Star Trek series is because it focuses on exploration; the quality of writing/characterization is another matter.
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I imagine them meeting in some dark basement after saying a password at the entrance and making sure they haven't been followed. Then they review the episode together in religious silence and at the end they sing its praises, talking about the splendid screenplay, direction and acting and what a gem of choreography the final fight is, despising the plebeians who do not know how to appreciate this masterpiece.
Fans of "Sub Rosa" use the same building on a different night of the week.
By the way, reading one of the numerous bad reviews of this episode, I found this interesting bit
Gene Roddenberry ended up firing Mayberry midway through production, and Les Landau was brought in to finish it up. Mayberry getting fired is an undisputed fact, but the exact reason why he was let go changes depending on who you ask.
For example, prolific Star Trek novel writer Keith DeCandido later said that Mayberry was explicitly fired for his casting decision that needlessly transformed a bad episode into a racist episode. Meanwhile, Wesley Crusher actor Wil Wheaton has a more salacious suspicion. He believes that Mayberry got the ax because he was acting racist towards the Black guest stars he went out of his way to cast.
This raises a question for me: how much leeway did a director have at the time in everything that went into creating an episode (within budget of course)? I mean, if they really thought it was problematic that he cast an all-black cast, why wasn't he stopped right away?
Gene Roddenberry ended up firing Mayberry midway through production, and Les Landau was brought in to finish it up. Mayberry getting fired is an undisputed fact, but the exact reason why he was let go changes depending on who you ask.
For example, prolific Star Trek novel writer Keith DeCandido later said that Mayberry was explicitly fired for his casting decision that needlessly transformed a bad episode into a racist episode. Meanwhile, Wesley Crusher actor Wil Wheaton has a more salacious suspicion. He believes that Mayberry got the ax because he was acting racist towards the Black guest stars he went out of his way to cast.
This raises a question for me: how much leeway did a director have at the time in everything that went into creating an episode (within budget of course)? I mean, if they really thought it was problematic that he cast an all-black cast, why wasn't he stopped right away?
An all black cast of sex mad moron savage thugs swayed by ritual combat and white boobies. Less advanced, less cultured, and less good than their white saviors. Pathetic dimwits who can only be saved by smart and strong white people because they are just black. All black people need to beg the white men to come and save them, because left to their own devices they will choke on their own blankets.... Is how you can read the episode from a certain point of view.
Wakanda is the exact opposite.
Was Lutan even interested in Yar?
It's likely that he just wanted the alien to kill his wife, and then go away.
Yar could have been far less attractive, or even black, and it would not have changed his needs for his damn wife to shut up for just 5 minutes, please, for the love of god, no one cares about your stuffies woman!
I mean all T'Pring wanted was for Spock to say "I'm a cuck, my dick doesn't work, I'll be going now, smell you later." so that she could have a good time with Stonn, but horned up science officer would not play along.
Jesus.
The directors name was "Mayberry"
It's likely that he just wanted the alien to kill his wife, and then go away.
Yar could have been far less attractive, or even black, and it would not have changed his needs for his damn wife to shut up for just 5 minutes, please, for the love of god, no one cares about your stuffies woman!
I mean all T'Pring wanted was for Spock to say "I'm a cuck, my dick doesn't work, I'll be going now, smell you later." so that she could have a good time with Stonn, but horned up science officer would not play along.
Jesus.
The directors name was "Mayberry"
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Ok, the episode is, intentionally or unintentionally, racist.
Is it sexist too?
I was perplexed when Troi asks Tasha (who, remember, is a prisoner and may even be risking her life) how hot she thinks her captor is. What the hell does whether or not he's attractive have to do with anything? He could be aesthetically disgusting, he could respond perfectly to Tasha's standards of beauty. But it didn't matter at all. She was there as a Star Fleet officer and millions of lives were at stake. What importance did physical appearance have in the whole affair??? It's like saying "You know, as a woman you are not trustworthy if you think you are prey to an attractive and charming man. We need to know precisely how wet you get for him. It is of the utmost importance."
Is it sexist too?
I was perplexed when Troi asks Tasha (who, remember, is a prisoner and may even be risking her life) how hot she thinks her captor is. What the hell does whether or not he's attractive have to do with anything? He could be aesthetically disgusting, he could respond perfectly to Tasha's standards of beauty. But it didn't matter at all. She was there as a Star Fleet officer and millions of lives were at stake. What importance did physical appearance have in the whole affair??? It's like saying "You know, as a woman you are not trustworthy if you think you are prey to an attractive and charming man. We need to know precisely how wet you get for him. It is of the utmost importance."
Tasha Yar married and had babies with the Romulan Commandant of the concentration camp that hobbled her ankles once a week, so that she couldn't run.
Romulan Clink wooed her, while she was chained to the wall by her neck, and Tasha was totally into it, most probably because of how she was raised, when her parents explained that this is what love looks like, when a woman submits if the man will just please stop hitting her in the face with a rock.
Tough childhood.
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OK dude, this is over the top on the misogyny scale. Dial it back, dial it back a lot. This isn’t a site for torture fantasy porn.
I've rewatched the episode for the first time in a very long time, perhaps even 20 years or so. At least, this thread has managed to do that.
My impression is that it is certainly racist, but unintentionally so. I think it was simply a by-product of them attempting to portray a society with a very different culture (and they tried to make it as differently as possible, also in clothing). I don't think the intention was to portray black people as primitive or backward or anything of the kind. In retrospect they of course could have made better choices in this respect.
If anything, I have more issues with the sexism in this episode, as that very much did seem intentional. Showing Deanna very clearly 'most advantageously' (many shots that end just below her boobs, a costume that emphasises her hips, etc.), Lt. Yar being 'attracted' to such a male Lutan, Yareena being unable to understand another woman would not love Lutan, etc.
Lutan actually looks very much what Klingons would become in later TNG. Using his 'honor' as a cloak to do whatever he can to expand his power base, from a culture that is ritualistic and values honor highly, and may look primitive at first sight but is technologically still fairly advanced. (Even when the episode tries to make a point of them not being advanced, they have a transporter that has shorter (de)materialization times than the Enterprise transporter, they have an orbital station, and they have a vaccine the Federation cannot replicate, and they seem to have some kind of force fields and lasers. I'd say that, despite first appearances, they're probably equivalent to at least the 22nd century Federation).
My impression is that it is certainly racist, but unintentionally so. I think it was simply a by-product of them attempting to portray a society with a very different culture (and they tried to make it as differently as possible, also in clothing). I don't think the intention was to portray black people as primitive or backward or anything of the kind. In retrospect they of course could have made better choices in this respect.
If anything, I have more issues with the sexism in this episode, as that very much did seem intentional. Showing Deanna very clearly 'most advantageously' (many shots that end just below her boobs, a costume that emphasises her hips, etc.), Lt. Yar being 'attracted' to such a male Lutan, Yareena being unable to understand another woman would not love Lutan, etc.
Lutan actually looks very much what Klingons would become in later TNG. Using his 'honor' as a cloak to do whatever he can to expand his power base, from a culture that is ritualistic and values honor highly, and may look primitive at first sight but is technologically still fairly advanced. (Even when the episode tries to make a point of them not being advanced, they have a transporter that has shorter (de)materialization times than the Enterprise transporter, they have an orbital station, and they have a vaccine the Federation cannot replicate, and they seem to have some kind of force fields and lasers. I'd say that, despite first appearances, they're probably equivalent to at least the 22nd century Federation).
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Thought experiment: what if this was a Klingon colony?
I imagine the unfortunate implications just weren't that obvious in the abstract. And casting a planet like that usually would not be an issue. It would only be after you see the scenes being acted that you would realize what had happened. Then you are stuck with the casting because you can't fire the whole cast because they are black. And cancelling the half made episode entirely wasn't going to happen.
I don't know if it's been said already or maybe I even said it already, but in the original script the Ligonians were the Tellisians and were reptile people, and based on TNG makeup I like to imagine them looking like these guys from "Lonely Among Us." I've thought about making some art with some of the original concepts for the Season 1 episodes and for "Lonely Among Us" I thought about doing the same fight from the aired episode but with Tasha fighting a lizard woman instead.
And a giant lizard lusting for Tasha?I don't know if it's been said already or maybe I even said it already, but in the original script the Ligonians were the Tellisians and were reptile people, and based on TNG makeup I like to imagine them looking like these guys from "Lonely Among Us." I've thought about making some art with some of the original concepts for the Season 1 episodes and for "Lonely Among Us" I thought about doing the same fight from the aired episode but with Tasha fighting a lizard woman instead.
Not sure I want that image in my head.
Of course!
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