Spoilers Section 31 General Discussion Thread

[Dukhat]

In DSC, Section 31 was not a secret. Pike knew about it. Spock knew about it. Even the low-level Discovery bridge crew whose total amount of character development consisted of them having names, knew about it.

Fast-forward 100 years. Sisko has never heard of it. Bashir has never heard of it. Dax (and how old is Dax again?) never heard of it. Etc, etc. Yet there are even former Starfleet officers who are still alive and even had direct contact with Section 31 (i.e. Spock) who would have known of its existence. So why is everyone in the 24th century acting like they know zero about this organization (even its name) when it was common knowledge only a century before? (Other than my usual stock answer of ‘because DSC isn’t in the same continuity as previous Trek,’ which isn’t the intent of the people producing DSC)

 

[F. King Daniel]

In DSC, Section 31 was not a secret

They literally call it "top secret" in season 2. Remember Discovery had S31 officers on board in season 1. The crew knew, because of their prior secret spore drive research.

 

[Dukhat]

They literally call it "top secret" in season 2. Remember Discovery had S31 officers on board in season 1. The crew knew, because of their prior secret spore drive research.

Except that has nothing to do with what I wrote. Who cares if they called it top secret when everybody knows of its existence?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Except that has nothing to do with what I wrote. Who cares if they called it top secret when everybody knows of its existence?

You're looking at a sample made of a crew who were on a top secret science ship doing top secret spore drive research. It's quite different from the DS9 gang.

 

[fireproof78]

Consider it a taboo subject, and a quarantine section.
~A Starfleet Admiral, probably.

 

[Dukhat]

You're looking at a sample made of a crew who were on a top secret science ship doing top secret spore drive research. It's quite different from the DS9 gang.

Pike knew that Leland guy and Section 31 before he ever even took command of Discovery.

Of course, this is the same Pike who knew about Section 31’s commbadges but then acted like he’d never heard of such a thing to Una (who knew about the commbadges too) when they later met Boimler, but that’s another story.

 

[Tomalak]

Pike knowing isn’t “everyone knew”. He’s the guy who went to Talos IV, I wouldn’t be surprised if he received a debriefing.

 

[Dukhat]

Pike knowing isn’t “everyone knew”. He’s the guy who went to Talos IV, I wouldn’t be surprised if he received a debriefing.

Point being missed. Section 31’s existence was known in the 2250’s, but for some reason nobody knows about it in the 2360’s. That’s the disconnect.

 

[fireproof78]

Pike knowing isn’t “everyone knew”. He’s the guy who went to Talos IV, I wouldn’t be surprised if he received a debriefing.

Yup. It's like a Special Access Program used today. Compartmented information, limited access, and need to know.

Point being missed. Section 31’s existence was known in the 2250’s, but for some reason nobody knows about it in the 2360’s. That’s the disconnect.

Officers not needing access would have no reason to know.

 

[Dukhat]

Yup. It's like a Special Access Program used today. Compartmented information, limited access, and need to know.

Except you know what a Special Access Program is, and so does the person who posted that Wikipedia entry you quoted.

 

[Tomalak]

Point being missed. Section 31’s existence was known in the 2250’s, but for some reason nobody knows about it in the 2360’s. That’s the disconnect.

I don’t see an insurmountable disconnect here. Most people don’t know about it in the Disco period - but some do. Most people don’t know about it in DS9 - but some do. Admiral Ross certainly did. The people Sisko made informal enquiries to obviously did.

 

[fireproof78]

I don’t see an insurmountable disconnect here. Most people don’t know about it in the Disco period - but some do. Most people don’t know about it in DS9 - but some do. Admiral Ross certainly did. The people Sisko made informal enquiries to obviously did.

Also, at the end of Season 2 of Discovery, Pike blames Section 31, and Starfleet says "Yeah, we'll clean it up." Well, all you need is a line in there about how Control destroyed all of 31's information upon it's destruction as a insurance policy, resulting in 31 being rebuilt in to a more compartmented state, and not giving access to all of Starfleet's systems as before.

Except you know what a Special Access Program is, and so does the person who posted that Wikipedia entry you quoted.

That's too broad of a definition to be meaningful.

By that logic, everyone should know what Section 31 is, because they know what a section is?

I couldn't tell you what the US Intelligence agencies SAP are, their code names, or even their operational duties.

Vague knowledge does not make something "known."

 

[Dukhat]

I don’t see an insurmountable disconnect here. Most people don’t know about it in the Disco period - but some do. Most people don’t know about it in DS9 - but some do. Admiral Ross certainly did. The people Sisko made informal enquiries to obviously did.

We can agree to disagree about how knowledgeable Section 31 should have been to people like Sisko, Bashir, etc., but I find it debatable that its existence was this big secret by the 24th century when people like Spock are still around who knows exactly what it is. The implication shown in Deep Space Nine was that while higher-ups acknowledge its existence (or not, as the case may be), in a general sense no one should even know its name. Which in the context of DSC makes no sense. Even if I don’t know what NSA does, I’ve heard of the name and can make inferences as to why it exists and what it possibly does. But by Trek logic, in 100 years no one will even know the name NSA. I mean, c’mon. Your Like buddy above even knows what a special access program is and can find a wiki page for it online, even if he doesn’t know exactly the intricacies of a specific SAP. He still knows it exists.

 

[fireproof78]

Rumor and speculation is not knowledge. Is assumption.

Spock doesn't share information. Hence Sybok, his dad, etc.

You can dismiss it away easily enough.

 

[Okmyx]

Today, we know of an FBI, a CIA, a KGB etc. Do we know what groups they may employ as secret organizations? Anybody remember Clint Eastwood's movie Magnum Force? A secret group of vigilantes in the police force. Only those involved knew about them. That's how I envision Section 31 - a secret group of people within a larger agency that the larger agency may or may not condone, support, or otherwise even know about.

 

[Dukhat]

Except the larger agency in this case would be Starfleet. So if you’re comparing Starfleet to the FBI, CIA, KGB, etc., then that larger agency would be quite well aware of the Magnum Force secret group of people they hire as vigilantes.

 

[eschaton]

Section 31 as portayed in DS9 was a shadowy cabal/conspiracy, not an intelligence agency.

Look at it as being early installment weirdness.

 

[fireproof78]

Or, that one agency took on multiple roles, and may have had a legitimate front.

Except the larger agency in this case would be Starfleet. So if you’re comparing Starfleet to the FBI, CIA, KGB, etc., then that larger agency would be quite well aware of the Magnum Force secret group of people they hire as vigilantes.

Not everyone would.

 

[The Wormhole]

Usually doesn't happen until it's a few weeks prior to the release date.

So, I would not expect it to pop up soon. Others can correct me if I am wrong.

Generally correct, yeah. The actual length of time a forum is set up before the premiere varies from weeks to months, but usually a forum is not set up until a premiere date is known, and we certainly have never had a forum started up just because filming had begun.

Regardless, even when we do get a premiere date and are weeks or months away, I wouldn't hold my breath on a Section 31 specific forum. Since this is supposed to be the first of a planned bi-annual release of streaming Star Trek movies on Paramount+ I find it far more likely we'll have a forum dedicated to the streaming movies, to join the separate forums we currently have for the Prime Universe movies and the Kelvin Timeline movies.

 

[NCC-73515]

What people said about 31 in DS9:

SLOAN:
Let's just say I belong to another branch of Starfleet Intelligence. Our official designation is Section 31.
We keep a low profile. Works out better that way for all concerned.
We're an autonomous department.

SISKO:
Starfleet Command doesn't acknowledge its existence, but they don't deny it either.
Officially, Starfleet Command has said that they are appalled at the very notion that an organization like Section 31 might exist, and that they plan to get to the bottom of this entire business.
They have quietly pushed the investigation aside, which means either they don't take Section 31 seriously or someone at Starfleet Command is protecting them.

ODO:
If he's right and Section 31 has existed since the birth of the Federation, they've learned to cover their tracks very well.

BASHIR:
Section 31 isn't part of Starfleet Intelligence.
They see themselves as protecting the interests of the Federation, although they have absolutely no official standing.
Section 31 aren't part of the Federation. They're a rogue organization...
Face this fact. Section 31 have managed to stay in the shadows for over three hundred years.

So Sloan says they are part of SI, but Bashir says they're not. Bashir even says they're not part of the Federation, yet Sloan says they have an official designation. There seems to be consensus that they are hidden, low profile, autonomous, unacknowledged, unwanted by SF, rogue, and that they stayed hidden since around FC, long before Disco/TOS.

Therefore, the only way to maintain continuity seems to be:
31 was hidden as DS9 said until sometime between ENT and Disco, more widely known during Disco (perhaps they did something heroic and public before and got officially recognized and were even given a fleet), then hidden again until DS9 (possibly because of the Control disaster, after which its fleet was destroyed and they were officially dissolved), and then widely known again during LDS and PIC, where Riker knows who they are, they operate Daystrom station and have Kirk in their possession, and lower deck ensigns know their speedwalking habits and question their use of black badges