Spoilers Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny grade and discussion

[Ovation]

Rewatched the other night with my wife (her first viewing). I felt the same as the first time—tied for third with Temple (Shia Lebœuf in Skull is a serious problem for me as I cannot stand him as an actor).

Typical Indy—fun times. And the idea Indy was “emasculated” as expressed earlier? Bollocks. He’s just old. And the younger character doing more of the action-y things just happens to be a woman. In no way whatsoever do those two things equal “emasculation”. That’s just absurd.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Rewatched the other night with my wife (her first viewing). I felt the same as the first time—tied for third with Temple (Shia Lebœuf in Skull is a serious problem for me as I cannot stand him as an actor).

Typical Indy—fun times. And the idea Indy was “emasculated” as expressed earlier? Bollocks. He’s just old. And the younger character doing more of the action-y things just happens to be a woman. In no way whatsoever do those two things equal “emasculation”. That’s just absurd.

That's just some peoples way of saying they don't like women in leading roles, especially if it's an action movie "because only the boys" can do that kind of thing.

 

[jaime]

That's just some peoples way of saying they don't like women in leading roles, especially if it's an action movie "because only the boys" can do that kind of thing.

/s

Must be tough being limited to films starring Clint Eastwood and John Wayne. (Ok, a few of the eighties action flicks were still sausage fests, but this is the part where it’s obligatory to point at Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor, but that is really just the tip of the iceberg.)

 

[Anwar]

Must be tough being limited to films starring Clint Eastwood and John Wayne. (Ok, a few of the eighties action flicks were still sausage fests, but this is the part where it’s obligatory to point at Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor, but that is really just the tip of the iceberg.)

Oh please, if Ripley and Sarah Connor debuted today they'd be called "SJW Propaganda".

 

[Tosk]

Nah, Sarah would get a pass because she's just a helpless teenage girl when we first meet her.

 

[jaime]

Oh please, if Ripley and Sarah Connor debuted today they'd be called "SJW Propaganda".

Probably. But you have one side pretending they never existed, and the other side… also pretending they never existed. Or at the very least, there will be some reason they (and Brigitte Nielsen, and Cynthia Rothrock, and, and… ) weren’t right or don’t count. Ah well, that’s post modern society for you. There is only the never ending now.
Bit shit init.

 

[Tuskin38]

Leia in A New Hope was also pretty in charge. As soon as Han and Luke break her out she just takes over.

 

[fireproof78]

That's just some peoples way of saying they don't like women in leading roles, especially if it's an action movie "because only the boys" can do that kind of thing.

Oh my goodness.

Who the fuck cares? This was something that people talk about that I find so absolutely mind-bogglingly stupid. Action heroes do action hero things. The gender doesn't make the movie better or worse. There are dumb action movies with men and fun ones with women.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Yes but today there seems to be a subset of people who are loud and obnoxious and make everyone know they don't like the females in lead roles, and if you disagree with them they figuratively burn you at the stake.

 

[jaime]

To be fair, there’s also a lot of people who think having x,y,z group as the lead makes a film immune from criticism (or any story really) and that any such automatically makes you against x,y,z group. Which is nonsense.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

To be fair, there’s also a lot of people who think having x,y,z group as the lead makes a film immune from criticism (or any story really) and that any such automatically makes you against x,y,z group. Which is nonsense.

That's also a good point

 

[fireproof78]

Yes but today there seems to be a subset of people who are loud and obnoxious and make everyone know they don't like the females in lead roles, and if you disagree with them they figuratively burn you at the stake.

So, fans?

That's how fans have always been, over lesser controversial things, from casting, to awards, to who us on the poster, who got what billing.

It's absurd and it's a part of fandom.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

I don't know about emasculation and all of that, but there was a general lack of agency on Indy's part.

Take the ending. Imagine if after Indy said he wanted to stay, and Helena had tried to convince him, ending with something like, "...or you could come back and have a chance with Marion again." And then Indy making the decision to leave.

But why do all of that when she can just knock him out?

I dunno. I need to give it a second viewing, but this movie kept making me sad as I watched it.

 

[Ovation]

I don't know about emasculation and all of that, but there was a general lack of agency on Indy's part.

Take the ending. Imagine if after Indy said he wanted to stay, and Helena had tried to convince him, ending with something like, "...or you could come back and have a chance with Marion again." And then Indy making the decision to leave.

But why do all of that when she can just knock him out?

I dunno. I need to give it a second viewing, but this movie kept making me sad as I watched it.

That ending would have been out of character for Helena based on what we’d seen to that moment (and Indy is often robbed of agency in the films more generally, so it seemed appropriate to me). However, your version would have been an interesting choice (especially if Helena had demonstrated a bit more complexity in her character prior to that point).

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

She kind of needed it, in my opinion. She was pretty unlikable for most of the movie, and didn't really earn her turnaround.

The point of bringing in a new, younger character in a legacy sequel is to reinvigorate the hero and help them remember who they are. And then there should be some sort of "still got it" moment. Yeah, it's formulaic, but it exists for a reason.

I get that Indy has been without agency at points in the series to keep the plot going. But he shouldn't be robbed of it at the very end. Just like when his father convinced him to let the grail go. If nothing else, Indy should have made the choice, whether Helena convinced him or not.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

THANK YOU

Someone else noticed that. Knocks him out, next scene he's back in the present wow..... Yeah I know they were close to the run time on the movie but that kind of sucked

 

[Tosk]

I know, can you imagine the reaction people would have if one of the earlier movies had done that? Indy is who knows where, stuck out in the middle of somewhere remote, and then literally just cut to the final scene of the movie where he's home again?!

Like how it happens in Raiders.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

That’s not the point and you know it. That’s a bad faith comparison. The character choice isn’t even similar.

I’m truly glad it worked for you. I really wanted to enjoy it. I was enjoying it up to a point despite its flaws. I don’t think it even had to change a whole lot to be a much better Indy movie. But that ending, man.

 

[Anwar]

That’s not the point and you know it. That’s a bad faith comparison. The character choice isn’t even similar.

I’m truly glad it worked for you. I really wanted to enjoy it. I was enjoying it up to a point despite its flaws. I don’t think it even had to change a whole lot to be a much better Indy movie. But that ending, man.

Yes, in Raiders it's totally Indy himself who makes choices that defeat Belloq and the Nazis....

Oh wait no, it turns out that he had no control over what happened and the Ark did the work for him so he had little to no agency.

 

[Tosk]

That’s a bad faith comparison.

I guess it could be argued that it's technically bad faith in that my post pretended to be agreeing at first, but in my opinion that was irony more than bad faith. For the record, my post was worded as a reply to Gingerbread's post, not yours. So I'm not saying character motivation was the same.

I’m truly glad it worked for you.

I didn't say whether it did or not, I just pointed out that a time-jump over unspecified travel at the finale of an Indy movie is not unheard of.