Brainstorm - Starfleet Marines (alittle different)

[evilchumlee]

Mostly a SF role, honestly more likely to draw on specialist assistance from the SCE special operations unit (which I headcanon as the Pioneers), rather than the EF most of the time.

In a Prime setting... yes.

In this particular setting, no I don't think so. Under normal circumstances, the best Starfleet is going to have is a Redshirt. More the mainline Trek style of "Something is happening? Send the bridge crew over for some reason all the time."

Other than its existence being canon (and that's basically all we know about it), nothing really.

I kind of headcanon it has more of a specialist training cadre in terms of it's contributions to the Federation/Starfleet, perhaps similar to https://www.eliteukforces.info/royal-marines/mountain-leaders/ as it's regular deployments are largely going to be local matters as you say.

Yeah even in straight canon it's still a bit of an oddity. I would probably put it more in line with some sort of Federation-funded wet navy program member worlds can get in on. Probably much closer to a coast guard, with any actual command being local. The "Federation" is part is more of a civilian administration for funding/bureaucracy purposes.

How "separate" it was pre-Khitomer is somewhat variable, though I generally have it at least one level below the Starfleet Commander-in-Chief/Chief of Staff

.

In canon, it may not even exist.

Realistically, if Starfleet Marines did exist in canon, they're just a department of Starfleet. Everything is a department of Starfleet.

Similar to above, I have no problem with the idea of a "National Guard" style strategic administration/reserve system, but certainly "combat arms" units (especially armor/artillery) shouldn't be a regular thing in Federation control outside of wartime IMO.

I would generally agree, which is why I initially had the idea of the Federation's military being more akin to NATO. In my initial idea here, the Federation doesn't have any military at all... it's member worlds have militaries. Starfleet "isn't a military", and the Marines are, projected to the public, to be more of an Advanced Security force.

If we're talking straight Prime canon... I actually think even Starfleet isn't actually in Federation control directly until after ST6. The main reason I say that is that it's clear the command structure changed between ST6 and DS9... in ST6, the CinC and Federation President are not the same, but in DS9, the Federation President became the CinC of Starfleet. I think that, in canon, it's actually kind of the opposite of what I was suggesting in my universe... Khitomer attaches Starfleet to Federation control?

Under the Accords, I generally see the reporting line being something like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Marines.

Yeah, I think that's better Post-Accords. I like the idea of it being a somewhat larger service Pre-Accords, being a branch of Starfleet but then Post-Accords, reorganizing to a department within Starfleet and a leaner organization. The Accords wouldn't have COMPLETELY eliminate any trace of military, just severely reduced the size and scope of available forces.

 

[fireproof78]

That said, there certainly could be some *wink wink, nudge nudge* Totally-Not-Ground-Force Ground Forces. Revising again, pulling the "Hazard Team" from Elite Force... I was going to make that an EF Special Ops unit, but I might pull them in to be Starfleet. "What do you mean 'combat troops', Federation Council? The Hazard Team is trained for hazardous situations of all manner!"

Which is why terms like "Special Operations, Field Ops, etc." provide that appropriate terminology while minimizing the "minor province" of military operations as Starfleet and the Federation would regard it.

I'm trying to flip modern day on its head, where the military basically gets whatever it wants and does whatever it wants and is showered with nearly unlimited funds. In my Star Trek, the "military" is constantly under heavy scrutiny and needs to be careful with how it treads.

And an interesting paradigm, especially moving in to the 24th Century with nearly unlimited resources being afforded to the people's of the Federation, and Starfleet in terms of research, development, various ship design and engineering, and moving them to be able to complete a wide variety of projects.

So, while I can see the effort to flip the modern efforts on its head, it's interesting in that in Star Trek, at least in other iterations not a requirement here, STARFLEET gets a lot of latitude in both power within the Federation society, as well as use of resources.

 

[evilchumlee]

Which is why terms like "Special Operations, Field Ops, etc." provide that appropriate terminology while minimizing the "minor province" of military operations as Starfleet and the Federation would regard it.

Yeah I like terms like that. I tend to prefer "Special Operations" specifically for like, elite special forces type stuff, but there are bunch of creative ways to say "military stuff" without saying military stuff.

And an interesting paradigm, especially moving in to the 24th Century with nearly unlimited resources being afforded to the people's of the Federation, and Starfleet in terms of research, development, various ship design and engineering, and moving them to be able to complete a wide variety of projects.

So, while I can see the effort to flip the modern efforts on its head, it's interesting in that in Star Trek, at least in other iterations not a requirement here, STARFLEET gets a lot of latitude in both power within the Federation society, as well as use of resources.

That's the thing though. Starfleet still would get showered in resources and power. Because it's not military. It's... military-ish, but it's not strictly military.

I think it's a harder sell within the Federation, especially Post-Accords, to afford the same to a more overt military organization. It's partly due to straight up "funding"... there is definitely still resource allocation... and partly to personnel. Most people want to join Starfleet, and go do Starfleet things. The best engineers, scientists, etc. aren't knocking down the door to join the Marines.

They're getting some particular types... the "hard men" so to speak that i'm not sure exist in huge droves in Federation society, for better or worse. Even those who might be more prone to something like that, like say... Worf... Starfleet is still the attractive option. ESPECIALLY when it comes to officers. I can honestly see this service having a hard time filling officer roles. Somebody like a Worf may have been interested in this service, but he also wanted to go to Starfleet Academy because that's what people do.

 

[fireproof78]

I think it's a harder sell within the Federation, especially Post-Accords, to afford the same to a more overt military organization. It's partly due to straight up "funding"... there is definitely still resource allocation... and partly to personnel. Most people want to join Starfleet, and go do Starfleet things. The best engineers, scientists, etc. aren't knocking down the door to join the Marines.

Maybe, for a variety of reasons though, that might not be so hard. You might see more nonhumans in these roles, including Andorians, who have a violent history and celebrated tactical prowess, and perhaps more Klingons who see value in their experience to share with the Federation. And other races might similarly like this side. More than that, they would be looking at spinning it away from "military" and towards defense, which is what we see with the Klingons in the TNG era and having their "Defense Force" vs. the great militaries of the past.

We should not assume the "best" are the only people we are looking for. There are still competitive and violent sports even in the 24th century that might lend itself towards the Marine training.

They're getting some particular types... the "hard men" so to speak that i'm not sure exist in huge droves in Federation society, for better or worse. Even those who might be more prone to something like that, like say... Worf... Starfleet is still the attractive option. ESPECIALLY when it comes to officers. I can honestly see this service having a hard time filling officer roles. Somebody like a Worf may have been interested in this service, but he also wanted to go to Starfleet Academy because that's what people do.

Maybe. Maybe not because it's all in how you present it.

 

[evilchumlee]

Maybe, for a variety of reasons though, that might not be so hard. You might see more nonhumans in these roles, including Andorians, who have a violent history and celebrated tactical prowess, and perhaps more Klingons who see value in their experience to share with the Federation. And other races might similarly like this side. More than that, they would be looking at spinning it away from "military" and towards defense, which is what we see with the Klingons in the TNG era and having their "Defense Force" vs. the great militaries of the past.

That's another facet of why I had addressed member worlds operating their own military forces. Andorians would remain more militaristic... and generally prefer to serve in their own armed forces.

In all reality, in my altered setting, Starfleet probably isn't all that popular among non-humans. Humans are kind of the unique oddity who are the most gung-ho about the Federation and wanting to intermingle with different races and see the galaxy. Most others are content to largely stick to their own.

 

[fireproof78]

In all reality, in my altered setting, Starfleet probably isn't all that popular among non-humans. Humans are kind of the unique oddity who are the most gung-ho about the Federation and wanting to intermingle with different races and see the galaxy. Most others are content to largely stick to their own.

Interesting. I would expect that humans would not be alone, even if they are in minority.

 

[Bynar0110]

In my head Cannon the Marines are like the g a r from Star Wars.

 

[Robert Bruce Scott]

In the Star Trek Hunter TrekVerse, humanity is ascendent largely due to an enormous population. 14 billion humans, hybrids (and a smattering of other species) on Earth. More than 20 billion living in our solar system - close to 60 billion, counting hybrids, scattered across the federation.

The Federation started as a military alliance among Star Fleet, the Andorian Imperial Guard and the Vulcan High Command. A few hundred other species shelter under this alliance, dependent on that combined strength to protect them from predation, especially by the orions. Most of these species never developed space travel, much less FTL, but were brought into the FTL community as a result of being enslaved by some superluminal species or other.

 

[evilchumlee]

Interesting. I would expect that humans would not be alone, even if they are in minority.

Not alone per say, that's too extreme. Humans just have a bit of a defining trait of being the most "out there".

These are just totally ass-pulled numbers for examples sake. We might see...
75 of a 100 Humans who have a desire to explore, expand, seek out new life, and new civilizations...
You might see... 30 of a 100 Vulcans.
10 of 100 Andorians.
2 of 100 Tellarites.

Humans are the expansionist explorers by and large. It happens in other races, but by and large the other races tend to like to stick to their homeworld or nearby space.

*BUT* Even then, those other races who ARE interested in Starfleet and associated services may tend to prefer to stick to their own, for various reasons. Vulcans, for instance, can largely be uncomfortable around humans. We smell bad. We're loud and obnoxiously emotional, not to mention tend to be weirdly racist to them. We like it too cold, and too dark. They can deal with it, but overall they would be more comfortable on a Vulcan ship.

I put a slightly darker spin on my version of the world. There's some other races who do the same type of thing. Klingons. Romulans. They're conquerors but... so are humans. Humans just do it different. Klingons and Romulans seek to conquer you through military might. Humans are more subtle, assimilating everyone into their culture. It's not malevolent, it's not even on purpose. It just is.

 

[fireproof78]

We're loud and obnoxiously emotional, not to mention tend to be weirdly racist to them.

That's ok. Vulcans are racist towards humans.

I put a slightly darker spin on my version of the world. There's some other races who do the same type of thing. Klingons. Romulans. They're conquerors but... so are humans. Humans just do it different. Klingons and Romulans seek to conquer you through military might. Humans are more subtle, assimilating everyone into their culture. It's not malevolent, it's not even on purpose. It just is.

I don't think that's darker at all. I think that's the reality painted in TOS and then left behind in TNG, save by implication, i.e. we see more humans in STARFLEET than other races.

But, even accounting for Andorians, Tellarites and Vulcans, we would still have multiple other races that have joined. They might just be wanting to have that protection from the Federation, i.e. inside the sphere of influence but not necessarily serve, i.e. like Capella, but some might still jump in.

I could see ships splitting along some species line as you note just due to comfort and familiarity, but then you have a lot of other races who might be all in on trying something new, providing a defensive force to protect their new home, or things like that. I don't think the Marines would always struggle, if you pitch it right and appeal to that sense of duty, honor, protection, and strength.

 

[Robert Bruce Scott]

I put a slightly darker spin on my version of the world. There's some other races who do the same type of thing. Klingons. Romulans. They're conquerors but... so are humans. Humans just do it different. Klingons and Romulans seek to conquer you through military might. Humans are more subtle, assimilating everyone into their culture. It's not malevolent, it's not even on purpose. It just is.

To quote Sela (who, in STH, is the Supreme Commander of the Romulan Star Navy):
“They frighten me deeply, these humans. For all their protestations about loving life, they have brought so much death to our home. They expand their territory like the borg, but in slow motion. Soft borg. Pretty borg. Friendly borg. Assimilating everything and everyone in their path. Gradually homogenizing as they go. And they protect each territorial gain with the ferocity of a wounded anaixes protecting her cubs. They are so ready to destroy anything that isn’t them.”

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Pretty sure you're (also) describing the Romulans there, Sela.

As far as humans being dominant in Starfleet, particularly in the early days, IMO that comes back to two fairly simple points:

1) Humans have more stake in Starfleet than the other races because they actually want to explore for the sake of exploring, other races (explicitly the Vulcans, but likely in other cases) mostly only do so for specific reasons.
2) Harking back to what Soval said in Enterprise once, most of the "Federation" races have a particular "hat" and it's relatively easy to play that against them, whereas humans are a lot more versatile.

 

[evilchumlee]

Pretty sure you're (also) describing the Romulans there, Sela.

As far as humans being dominant in Starfleet, particularly in the early days, IMO that comes back to two fairly simple points:

Agreed.

I have an undertone in my universe riffing from Quark's rant about what happens when you remove the creature comforts from humans. Part of the general human dominance of the Federation is... to some extent... the other members mostly just staying out of Earth's way. They know full well what humans are capable of if they aren't "fat and happy" so to speak. The other members actively WANT humans to be out there distracted with all kinds of stuff to keep them occupied.

The whole cultural assimilation thing is definitely true, again it's not malevolent or even deliberate it's just what we do. Someone like T'Kuvma is absolutely right. "We come in peace" may well be a declaration of war from the humans, because they're coming in peace... to eradicate your culture and replace it with their own. He's NOT wrong.

Humans are just like root beer. All sweet and bubbly, and after awhile, you grow to actually kind of like it.

 

[fireproof78]

Agreed.

I have an undertone in my universe riffing from Quark's rant about what happens when you remove the creature comforts from humans. Part of the general human dominance of the Federation is... to some extent... the other members mostly just staying out of Earth's way. They know full well what humans are capable of if they aren't "fat and happy" so to speak. The other members actively WANT humans to be out there distracted with all kinds of stuff to keep them occupied.

The whole cultural assimilation thing is definitely true, again it's not malevolent or even deliberate it's just what we do. Someone like T'Kuvma is absolutely right. "We come in peace" may well be a declaration of war from the humans, because they're coming in peace... to eradicate your culture and replace it with their own. He's NOT wrong.

Humans are just like root beer. All sweet and bubbly, and after awhile, you grow to actually kind of like it.

We already see the fringes in TNG with Yar's colony and rape gangs, and such.

So, while TNG tried to say that humans had evolved, there is that uncurrent of what they are capable of which I think is what makes the Marines more appealing. It isn't a distraction, but, to use a Freudian term, a sublimation of that energy to manage those more negative impulses in something constructive.

 

[evilchumlee]

So, while TNG tried to say that humans had evolved, there is that uncurrent of what they are capable of which I think is what makes the Marines more appealing. It isn't a distraction, but, to use a Freudian term, a sublimation of that energy to manage those more negative impulses in something constructive.

Yes... but if we're assuming that the goal is to keep humans, for lack of a better term, distracted... the vast majority of humans shouldn't really be aware of this, so the recruitment could still be an issue.

I think some are. It's how I explain the "Evil Admirals". There ARE enough humans out there who know what's up, they didn't get distracted by all the stuff and are humans ready to be nasty when need be. It's good to have some of them around, just not too many.

Still though, it makes more sense with a smaller force that does tend to attract a particular type of person.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes... but if we're assuming that the goal is to keep humans, for lack of a better term, distracted... the vast majority of humans shouldn't really be aware of this, so the recruitment could still be an issue.

I think some are. It's how I explain the "Evil Admirals". There ARE enough humans out there who know what's up, they didn't get distracted by all the stuff and are humans ready to be nasty when need be. It's good to have some of them around, just not too many.

Still though, it makes more sense with a smaller force that does tend to attract a particular type of person.

It's not distracted, that's a poor term. It's taking that energy and using it for the greater good of the Federation. It's a very common idea within psychotherapy that you don't just stop doing the negative habit but look to move that energy to something positive.

Same with humans. TOS took the idea that humans were savages, but that those impulses can be controlled and reigned in to build up a society rather than tear it down. So, you capitalize on the values that would draw people in to such a force, values of protection, tradition, strength and loyalty that all show up in a different way than in STARFLEET.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

The whole cultural assimilation thing is definitely true, again it's not malevolent or even deliberate it's just what we do. Someone like T'Kuvma is absolutely right. "We come in peace" may well be a declaration of war from the humans, because they're coming in peace... to eradicate your culture and replace it with their own. He's NOT wrong.

He's entirely wrong, but like any extremist he sees things as entirely win or lose.

Whereas IMO Federation membership had more subtle shades of grey to it.

YMMV.

 

[evilchumlee]

Same with humans. TOS took the idea that humans were savages, but that those impulses can be controlled and reigned in to build up a society rather than tear it down. So, you capitalize on the values that would draw people in to such a force, values of protection, tradition, strength and loyalty that all show up in a different way than in STARFLEET.

"Distracted" isn't the best term. More... occupied, safe, happy.

And yeah, this ground force would be an aspect of that.

He's entirely wrong, but like any extremist he sees things as entirely win or lose.

Whereas IMO Federation membership had more subtle shades of grey to it.

Is he though? I'm not even talking about Federation membership per say, just the general cultural dominance of humans.

Tk'uvma was concerned that the Federation would move in and eventually erase Klingon culture if left unchecked. He does very much have a point, and in the grand scheme of the Trek universe, he's probably not actually even wrong.

 

[Robert Bruce Scott]

1) Humans have more stake in Starfleet than the other races because they actually want to explore for the sake of exploring, other races (explicitly the Vulcans, but likely in other cases) mostly only do so for specific reasons.

Actually, the franchise never makes it explicit that Star Fleet is an arm of the Federation (UFP). However, in the Enterprise series (STE), it is explicit that Star Fleet is an arm of United Earth Governments (UEG) which goes on to become a founding member of UFP.

For the purposes of Star Trek Hunter / Star Beagle Adventures, I felt that UEG was no more likely to turn Star Fleet over to UFP than the US is to turn the US Navy over to NATO. Humanity doesn't have a stake in Star Fleet - humanity owns Star Fleet. SF, in turn, actively recruits all federation member species, offering, among other incentives, UEG citizenship, which includes entitlement to settle on Earth or UEG colonies (much like the US Navy.)

This assumption is supported by the original series episode The Immunity Syndrome, in which Kirk mentions that Star Fleet was experimenting with an all-vulcan crew for one ship. All-human crews are fairly close to normal.

As a result, Earth's population now includes nearly a half-billion vulcans and even more vulcan/human hybrids (by the time of STH, which takes place 20 years after the end of the Dominion War.) The Star Fleet Commandant in STH is an andorian who was born and raised in Canada. SBA includes terrestrial andorians, vulcans and denobulans.

 

[evilchumlee]

Actually, the franchise never makes it explicit that Star Fleet is an arm of the Federation (UFP). However, in the Enterprise series (STE), it is explicit that Star Fleet is an arm of United Earth Governments (UEG) which goes on to become a founding member of UFP.

For the purposes of Star Trek Hunter / Star Beagle Adventures, I felt that UEG was no more likely to turn Star Fleet over to UFP than the US is to turn the US Navy over to NATO. Humanity doesn't have a stake in Star Fleet - humanity owns Star Fleet. SF, in turn, actively recruits all federation member species, offering, among other incentives, UEG citizenship, which includes entitlement to settle on Earth or UEG colonies (much like the US Navy.)

In DS9, the Federation President is the C-in-C of Starfleet, which would imply it's under Federation command... although in ST6, the President and C-in-C are separate positions.

In Prime, i've long conjectured that Starfleet actually WAS still an Earth-based organization through ST6, and sometime in the "Lost Era" is reorganized to a Federation organization.

In my universe, i'm just streamlining it and having Starfleet become a Federation organization immediately. Earth would actually still maintain a small fleet of it's own, but it's basically irrelevant.

I make sense of it in my universe as Earth being desperate to make the Federation work. I'm having it so there was alot of squabbling in at the formation and they were having trouble getting the members to pony up and get resources to a Federation fleet... so Earth just bit the bullet and said "Fine, just have Starfleet then", and everyone else basically said "Sure."