The DS9/Voyager uniforms make sense as a replacement for the "Monster Maroon" coveralls (which contrary to Starfleet policy might have been used as the daily unifform for the "Marines" by all ranks, unless they used the TFF variant), but they are not a dress uniform and shouldn't be used as such IMO.
Brainstorm - Starfleet Marines (alittle different)
- Thread starter evilchumlee
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The DS9/Voyager uniforms make sense as a replacement for the "Monster Maroon" coveralls (which contrary to Starfleet policy might have been used as the daily unifform for the "Marines" by all ranks, unless they used the TFF variant), but they are not a dress uniform and shouldn't be used as such IMO.
I always thought the Movie-Era uniforms looked like they were always wearing a dress uniform.
Agreed.
I've seen a couple of attempts at a "Class B" variant around, one of my favourites was on this old thread: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/conjectural-movie-era-uniforms.109862/
The division color makes sense, but I actually see the Marines using more variants of the pajamas depending on the mission profile. The black/green shoulder would be the day to day work uniform aboard ship or on base, but if in the field a camouflaged variant would be employed.
Uniforms should definitely come in pieces for various reasons:
* spare supplies in a pinch (bandages, filter water, waving a flag, etc)
* medics accessing and treating injuries
* loan a fellow marine/rescued person your jacket
* spare supplies in a pinch (bandages, filter water, waving a flag, etc)
* medics accessing and treating injuries
* loan a fellow marine/rescued person your jacket
I think most of us would agree that a more "realistic" Starfleet should have the unit below:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Security_Unit
My question is would they be specialists within Starfleet Security (eg Bob Fletcher's "Starfleet Special Forces") or would they be part of the "Expeditionary Force"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Security_Unit
My question is would they be specialists within Starfleet Security (eg Bob Fletcher's "Starfleet Special Forces") or would they be part of the "Expeditionary Force"?
I wasn't particularly familiar with that unit, but after reading a bit it seems like... alittle bit of both? In my version here, Starfleet could be considered somewhat analogous to the Coast Guard. I think, in the context of my reboot, it makes more sense for the Expeditionary Force to be handling most of this, augmented by Starfleet Security.
My Starfleet really shouldn't have much in the way of actual "ground forces"... it was the entire point of the Expeditionary Force to provide that. Starfleet has Security, and within that there could be some that are a bit better trained and equipped who could do the job adequately, but having an Expeditionary Force unit would be ideal.
ALSO keep in mind a third option that we haven't talked about too much here. In my universe, some of this duty could also fall to member world forces, especially if it's a more long-term mission.
There's a progression here with Starfleet... it was never really supposed to be the main fleet that conducts space warfare. It becomes that, because of how huge and monolithic the organization becomes, but it was never intended. Starfleet very much was supposed to be something more akin to a research organization combined with a coast guard. Member worlds fleets were supposed to handle the lions share of warfare situations.
As the Federation matures, there's a shift in the general culture and attitudes away from staunch independence and sovereignty of most members to identifying more as the whole... the Federation becomes more and more... federal as time goes on, with the side effect of Starfleet seeing ever growing contributions from member worlds.
By the time we hit the TNG+ Era, most member worlds no longer field huge defense forces of their own, preferring to rely more and more on Starfleet... despite such duties officially being outside of its mission profile. The Expeditionary Force, by proxy, also grows as member worlds depend on the Federation more for defense, rather than their own forces.
Oh yeah there would be a few options, especially for combat gear.
I'm actually coming around a bit more on my reboot universe as a whole to not be quite as slavish to Prime canon. I can do whatever I want here, by definition. If I think something works better... there's no reason not to change it.
Uniforms were something that came to mind. Trek changes uniforms alot. There were obviously practical reasons for that out of universe. In-universe... we might drop a few iterations and change some things around.
I was specifically thinking of the Movie-Era uniforms and the talks were having about dress uniforms and not. I'm going to alter that in my universe, albeit fairly mildly. The "Monster Maroons" exist, because they look great, but i'm going to slightly edit their use. Not a great extent, but mildly. An important note, I don't think uniform codes of a multi-national organization 250 years in the future need to rely on exactly 21st century military uniform regulations... so... it works a bit different but we will use some modern nomenclature for ease of discussion.
Starfleet begins to phase in the "Movie-Era" uniforms in 2270 (the Motion Picture uniforms don't happen... at least, by and large. Some variants could exist.), although the Expeditionary Force had already been using the jacket-version since 2245. Given the general turbulence of the 2250's/60's, Starfleet began to tighten up and demand a higher level of formality than had previously been the norm in the fleet. A Starfleet division-colored version of the Marine uniform was adopted as a "service uniform" for Starfleet officers. Starfleet wanted the bridge of a starship to project a level of formality, given their missions often involved diplomatic roles or otherwise needing to represent the Federation. As such, officers serving on the bridge (and select other postings, stations, etc.) were expected to wear the service uniform while on duty. Other, less "on display" stations could choose to wear the service uniform or a more relaxed "Class B" uniform so to speak, which is essentially the "Star Trek Beyond" version of the TOS uniforms. (The service uniform would persist in Starfleet through the early 24th century, with the Class B getting a fairly radical redesign into the early Season 1/2 TNG uniforms, before dropping the service uniform and moving to the S3 TNG and DS9/VOY type)
The Expeditionary Force had already been using the service uniform for more formal functions, having moved to adopt a variant of the "new version" of the Starfleet uniforms that also began service in 2245. (The EF was basically wearing the SNW-style uniforms as duty uniforms, but the a male version of the half-zip variant.) The EF is a bit more steeped in tradition, so when Starfleet eventually moves to the TNG-style "dress" uniforms and settles on essentially a single uniform without really having a real class a or class b, the EF still does retain a version which looks much closer to the Never Actually Used TNG-style uniforms they planned for Generations.
I would say that both would have similar teams, but just like Special Forces in modern day military, each branch would have their own variations.
So, for the Marines I could see a Ship-to-Ship Special Operations Team, and a Ground Operation Special Team, while Starfleet Security would have the starbase security specialist.
Generally speaking I see new uniforms introduced due to new planet members joining and allowing for another variant or update to reflect so many members and their possible aesthetic preferences.
My thoughts are it depends on the amount of notice, the risk assessment and the scope of the mission.
- For short notice, small scale missions (say investigating a single outpost or civilian vessel) that are basically tasked to whatever Starfleet asset is closest (similar to many situations on the show), I'd assign that to a Special Forces detachment (capacity capped at the standard transporter capacity of the deploying vessel or passenger capacity of the assigned shuttle). But they might be reinforced by a larger Expeditionary Force unit if the mission goes beyond a few days.
- For short notice, small scale but higher risk missions assigned to a fixed, defensible location (The Siege of AR-558), then it would still be assigned to Special Forces, but a larger unit than the first category, ideally with at least one medium-range auxiliary vessel assigned. Maximum endurance is ninety days.
- Any mission with security implications should include an embedded Security Forces Detachment as part of the Command Element, but medium or large-scale and/or high risk missions with enough planned to get a team from the nearest "sector hub" would be assigned to an Expeditionary Force unit as long as the expected deployment time exceeds the amount of time needed to get "on station".
I'd actually invert that somewhat.
Ship-to-Ship would be very short notice, so would likely be tasked to a Security Forces team as they draw from the ship's company.
Non-intra-system Ground Operations are going to have some notice period, so would vary depending on the risk assessment.
Starbase security and intra-system operations would be short-notice, but are likely to have a much larger pool of resources to tap into, but could be somewhat variable depending on risk assessment and other political implications (a starbase in the "core systems" probably mostly have Special Forces as the active component, but draw on Expeditionary Reserve units from local member worlds as back-up, but somewhere like Starbase 375 near contested space would have at least a couple of Expeditionary Force formations under a general officer.
That's fair. I was looking more at training specializations but the anticipation of which role they will be called upon to fulfill makes sense that I had not considered.
In this specific context, I don't think applying a straight real-world military approach works. The different branches probably wouldn't have similar forces, as the Expeditionary Force only exists specifically because Starfleet wasn't really intended to have ground forces.
However, I do think that Starfleet could have some like, Elite security forces more akin to a SWAT team
Not a terrible idea. There's precedent, especially in newer Trek, for there to be several different uniforms active at a given time.
Although in my reboot here, I think it's something I want to get away from. I think every few decades or so is acceptable, and different uniforms for different divisions could be fine too, given how large Starfleet is.
There really is a part of me that wants to take my Expeditionary Force as not being a "branch" per say, but just a department within Starfleet. Rather than different branches having different uniforms and such, Starfleet just remains the parent command with various departments branching out from it. It's somewhat functionally the same as having distinct branches. The more I think about it, the more I like it.
Moving off from the Marines for a moment, I DID originally have the idea that the Departments of Starfleet would be akin to branches with their own traditions, but still falling under the same overall command.
The org chart would then something similar to..
Starfleet -
Command, Control and Security (I like how Star Trek Online put Security into Command) / Operations (Engineering/Ops), General Sciences / Expeditionary Force / Intelligence / Etc.
Despite being a collection of different agencies under one command, they all work intricately close with each other.
I like the idea of Starfleet/The Federation being different.
Something like this makes sense.
Everything being in space I think muddies the water a bit. We aren't really talking "Land" and "Sea" here. I kind of thing of Starbases less as Naval bases and more just... like... General Purpose Military Base / Orbital City/Trade Hub. In that case, they may well have "Army" for the defense duty... we just don't necessarily have something labelled "Army".
I agree, and the terminology can get confusing. I would call the Fleet Operations of Starfleet more one branch, with it's own individual divisions (Command, Science, Services), while the Marines would have their own divisions (Pilots, Ground Engineering, Tactical Specialist, Ordinance, etc). Just spitballing here.
I think you would see some overlap, and it depends on the mission profile. Certainly Security, like Shamrock notes, would have a ground response due to being the only asset available in a pinch. But, that would not be their primary mission profile, so their training would focused more on shipboard operations, and day to day security assignments.
The Expeditionary Force would have a mission profile designed for long term, and multi-faceted operations. So, while somewhat similar overlap in their mission, it would still be distinguished in their tactics and approach.
Hopefully I explained that well.
That's basically what I have at the moment. Under "Marines", or as i'm calling it "Expeditionary Force" for the time being, I had three departments... "Marines" (where I finally actually use the name), "Tactical Aviation" (not in love with the name, think it's a place holder), and "Special Operations" (which in this case, isn't necessarily just elite special forces, it's a broad blanket term for things that don't fall under "Marines" or "Aviation") . Attached to the side are some non-combat type departments like R&D and what not.
Engineering and Science would pull from Starfleet.
Oh yeah that makes sense, and was mostly what I was operating on. In this context, Starfleet wouldn't have something like "Special Forces"... they have Starfleet Security. Some of those Starfleet Security officers are trained in more advanced tactics and such to handle a variety of issues, but I don't think they would have any specific, focused "ground" component.
That said, there certainly could be some *wink wink, nudge nudge* Totally-Not-Ground-Force Ground Forces. Revising again, pulling the "Hazard Team" from Elite Force... I was going to make that an EF Special Ops unit, but I might pull them in to be Starfleet. "What do you mean 'combat troops', Federation Council? The Hazard Team is trained for hazardous situations of all manner!"
I'm trying to flip modern day on its head, where the military basically gets whatever it wants and does whatever it wants and is showered with nearly unlimited funds. In my Star Trek, the "military" is constantly under heavy scrutiny and needs to be careful with how it treads.
Sorry meant to continue the thought, Starfleet needs to be ESPECIALLY concerned Post-Khitomer Accords. I want to dig much more into that with this as well, and really flesh out the disarmament piece. It becomes an especially tough time for our Expeditionary Force.
I've been toying with the idea of basically two eras... pre-and-Post-Khitomer, kind of combining the two ideas here. I have a nascent idea here where Pre-Khitomer, the Expeditionary Force is an entirely separate branch of service and could be more openly military... and in fact, as we ramp up to it, Starfleet becomes much more militaristic as well. Then the Accords happen, and the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans agree to a drastic disarmament (that... happens to varying degrees among the powers), leading to the Expeditionary Force in a position they feared... they're no longer supposed to exist.
The branch itself is dissolved, becoming a department within Starfleet. That may be where something more like old, original idea of like "Tactical Operations" comes into play.
"Marines? What Marines? Those guys? They're just Starfleet Security forces, for peacekeeping. The green shirt? Oh that's just a nod to tradition. That's all. Don't worry about that."
I've been toying with the idea of basically two eras... pre-and-Post-Khitomer, kind of combining the two ideas here. I have a nascent idea here where Pre-Khitomer, the Expeditionary Force is an entirely separate branch of service and could be more openly military... and in fact, as we ramp up to it, Starfleet becomes much more militaristic as well. Then the Accords happen, and the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans agree to a drastic disarmament (that... happens to varying degrees among the powers), leading to the Expeditionary Force in a position they feared... they're no longer supposed to exist.
The branch itself is dissolved, becoming a department within Starfleet. That may be where something more like old, original idea of like "Tactical Operations" comes into play.
"Marines? What Marines? Those guys? They're just Starfleet Security forces, for peacekeeping. The green shirt? Oh that's just a nod to tradition. That's all. Don't worry about that."
I don't see any reason to change them all that much from their skillset in the games. The whole point of this exercise is to have multiple levels of "shooters":
Level 1: Security Officer. Basic entry level physical security, works with Operations/Communications on network security and Tactical on weapons provision and training. Patrols individually or in pairs.
Level 1a: Expeditionary Force Reservist: Typically based on major starbases, member planets and other "hubs". Deployed for medium term or large scale operations as units or formations under a Senior or General Officer.
Level 2: Hazard Team Officer. Typically works as a Security Officer on low to medium risk deployments. Usual first responder for calls for assistance from Exploration Division Away Teams and civilian facilities. Deploys in small, agile sub-units under a Junior Officer.
Level 3: Expeditionary Force "Specialist Units"*: Typically based on major starbases, member planets and other "hubs". Deployed for medium or high risk complex operations as sub-units or units under a Commissioned Officer.
*Including but not limited to EF Marines (Maritime**, Mountain and Polar Operations), EF Rangers (Intelligence and Urban Operations) and EF Commandos (Desert Operations).
** In conjunction with the Federation Naval Patrol Special Operations.
Each colony would have a guard unit of some variety - something between the "Minute Men" of colonial America and the National Guard. These would be the first line of defense and would have to hold the line until regulars arrive.
Marines are not the Army - they serve two very different purposes. The Marines establish beachheads and conduct special operations on a grand scale. They are not, generally speaking, an occupying force.
The Marines come to the rescue.
The Army comes to stay.
Marines are not the Army - they serve two very different purposes. The Marines establish beachheads and conduct special operations on a grand scale. They are not, generally speaking, an occupying force.
The Marines come to the rescue.
The Army comes to stay.
That was part of why I wanted to be somewhat limited in size/scope. In this universe, there *IS* an Army... er... many of them.
I think it's kind of reserve in the context of this thread. There should be less levels of "shooters", with Starfleet proper technically not really supposed to have anything more than a basic security force.
I think something like a "Hazard Team" would be kind of an unofficial unit that isn't standardized across Starfleet, rather being put together by a ship/station and generally... "overlooked" by Starfleet Command.
I like this idea, with some different names for different types of specialization. Would we lump Space-based operations (Boarding, zero-g combat, etc.) in with Marines, or are they something else? Actually thinking beyond Earth, what other environments might our soldiers find themselves in? Perhaps there's a special forces unit specifically trained/equipped to fight Tholians in their environment?
I'm probably going to drop the idea of the "Federation Naval Patrol". It doesn't really fit with rest of it. Unless someone can point out to me why I would be wrong, it doesn't seem like something that would need interplanetary coordination. Wet Navy assets would be local... although realistically, especially by the 24th century, building a vessel that is Sea/Air/Space worthy is fairly effortless so they may well be starships that are meant to warp to planets, enter the atmosphere, and operate on water.
This whole thing being a giant spit ball session, I love the different ideas coming in and obviously nothing is set in stone. I was thinking more about my idea of the organization changing, and... i'm start to lean in that direction. We end up shifting alot of this back though, we're generally talking in TNG+ terms but realistically, most of what we are talking about here would probably be TOS-Movie Era.
I kind of like the idea of Post-Khitomer Accords, the separate branch being dismantled and reorganized directly under Starfleet. Going with this idea, i'm more ok with the EF being a larger organization Pre-Khitomer, with the whole idea of the "underfunded, underdog" aspect being Post-Khitomer.
Given THAT revelation, I was also potentially thinking about establishing an actual Federation Army, with Starfleet also becoming explicitly more of a Space Navy as we move on leading up to Khitomer. I think it gives the Khitomer Accords a much larger impact and works in tandem to what I think the Klingons did to somewhat sidestep treaty stipulations (even in Prime)
Since it's relevant... I think the Khitomer Accords required massive reorganizations, but everyone tried to circumvent it to some extent in their own way. The Klingons by and large dismantled the Imperial Klingon Fleet... and broke the constituent parts up between the Great Houses. The Klingon Empire was left with almost no standing force at all. They had essentially privatized/feudalized the military. The Accords put a hard limit on what the Klingon Empire could field... it was significantly less restrictive on other organizations. So the "Klingon Defense Force" because the "military" of the Klingon Empire, with fleets and forces owned and operated by what are essentially private organizations in the Great Houses. The Romulans just... turtled up behind the Neutral Zone and there wasn't really much anyone could do to even verify they were abiding by the treaty.
The Federation... may have done something similar to the Klingons, demilitarizing Starfleet, disbanding the Expeditionary Force, and transferring the Federation Army(Name Pending) to full member world control. The forces the member worlds now had access to would fall well below the limits individually, and Starfleet would still retain some professional fighting force by integrating what it could the EF into a department of Starfleet. Between the Federation and Klingons, they both saw each others bullcrap but kind of ignored what they could as long it stayed at a reasonable level, because they were both trying to do the same thing.
Mostly a SF role, honestly more likely to draw on specialist assistance from the SCE special operations unit (which I headcanon as the Pioneers), rather than the EF most of the time.
Other than its existence being canon (and that's basically all we know about it), nothing really.
I kind of headcanon it has more of a specialist training cadre in terms of it's contributions to the Federation/Starfleet, perhaps similar to https://www.eliteukforces.info/royal-marines/mountain-leaders/ as it's regular deployments are largely going to be local matters as you say.
How "separate" it was pre-Khitomer is somewhat variable, though I generally have it at least one level below the Starfleet Commander-in-Chief/Chief of Staff.
Similar to above, I have no problem with the idea of a "National Guard" style strategic administration/reserve system, but certainly "combat arms" units (especially armor/artillery) shouldn't be a regular thing in Federation control outside of wartime IMO.
Under the Accords, I generally see the reporting line being something like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Marines.
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