Here's the thing: Even if we are deluding ourselves about Marvel, why does it bother you guys so much to beat this drum continously in the Marvel thread? Why can't you guys just let us enjoy it?
Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread
- Thread starter bbjeg
- Start date
I would've considered Cavill an obvious and great choice if that had been the original pick but I was actually really intrigued by Yuen in the role so now it just sounds disappointing.
Probably because there is a different level of enjoyment for those who do not like the Marvel films. And it might be difficult to see how anyone could enjoy it.
Speculation on my part. Definitely not rational.
There's still alot of Marvel to be made. He's a good actor, i'm sure there's something for him to do. I do think he was the wrong choice for Sentry.
No, I also use it for John Carpenter's movies that got a second life thanks to TV reruns and VHS/DVDs.
Doesn't the percentage of DC films that underperformed vs the number released outweigh the number of Marvel movies that underperformed vs the number released.
Off the top of my head yes - although it gets complex - do you include Joker?
I would.
There aren't that many DC movies so I can take a stab at my opinions of which DC movies performed well vs those that didn't based on things I read, whats known of the budgets, etc.
1) MOS - met expectations. Made a lot more money than the previous Superman movie (Returns). A lot of people noisily complained about the violence/destruction and WB clearly listened leading to...
2) BvS - just below expectations but seemingly profitable. A movie bringing together the two best known characters in comic book history was probably expected to do Avengers level numbers. This didn't quite get there, but it still made a lot of money. Not a flop.
3) Suicide Squad - Way outperformed expectations. Made a huge profit despite middling reviews and generally negative public reaction. Also started all the rumors of WB meddling in movies as movie tone was changed post filming.
4) Wonder Woman - Mega hit. Successful at the box office, with critics, and with audiences.
5) Justice League - Made significant money, but still probably a loss. $661,324,295 worldwide is no joke - but a Justice League movie was definitely expected to do numbers comparable to Avengers movies. After all, this was the next appearance of Wonder Woman - and he solo movie made $822,963,408 worldwide. The movie also saw negative reviews on average. The worst thing to happen though was how this movie took studio meddling rumors (some confirmed) to a new level, with extensive reshoots changing the tone of the movie with a new director. The new tone didn't seem to match what came before.
Still, at this point the DCEU was 5/5 without a MAJOR flop, and arguably with only 2 box office "disappointments".
6) Aquaman - HUGE surprise hit. An unbelievable $1,151,961,807 worldwide gross. Anyone predicted $1,151,961,807 making more money than Superman, WW and especially the entire JUSTICE LEAGUE?
7) Shazam - Did ok enough at the box office to get a sequel. Generally liked by audience. Not a hit. Not a flop.
8) We're including Joker? Ok, another HUGE somewhat surprising mega hit.
9) Birds of Prey - Did the wheels start falling off here? Just $205,358,461 on an $84,500,000 budget. Not some kind of spectacular flop, but surely the studio expected more? Suicide Squad was a super hit at the box office, and many analysts ascribed that to Margot Robbie as Harley Quinn. Well, SS made $749,200,054 worldwide.
10) WW1984 - Can't judge the box office - it came out during the brutal winter covid wave and was released on HBO at the same time. Didn't do to well compared to some other day and date WB movies that came later, but this one was first and thus isn't fairly comparable to anything. So all we have to talk about is critical and viewer sentiment. 58% on RT and 5.4 on IMDB. Not scientific measurements in the slightest, but still definitely pointing to a negative audience and critical reaction - matching my anecdotal experience.
11) THE Suicide Squad - Another day and date movie, but later in the pandemic when more people had started being out and about. Still lost money theatrically despite being liked (90% on RT, 7.2 on IMDB) by critics and viewers, for the most part.
12) The Batman - A return to form at the box office for a DC movie - $772,245,583 worldwide. Not a part of the DCEU though, for which things were about to get so much worse!
13) Black Adam - $393,252,111 seems like a good box office for a villainous character movie without his main foil involved (no Shazam in this one). Still, the response by this studio seemed pretty negative, with rumors of The Rock leaking false information about the movie being profitable.
14) Shazam 2 - Uh oh. A bona-fide flop. Just $133,838,006 worldwide - a low number many couldn't imagine for a major comic book sequel just a few years before.
15) The Flash - Probably sealed the fate for any actors continuing their roles into the Gunn era. Despite some over the top early word of mouth calling it the best superhero movie ever, the audience and critical reaction was tepid, and the box office was a complete disappointment. $270,633,313 worldwide returns on a movie featuring the return of Batman '89? Shocking! Lets not forget that the actor strike and the tabloid hijinx of the lead could have played a role.
16) Batgirl - thrown in the trash by Zaslav. Lame.
17) Blue Beetle - This was meant to be a TV movie, so box office is hard to judge since the movie probably wasn't filmed with movie theaters in mind. Only made $129,288,072 worldwide though, so sadly its unlikely that this movie will be counted as being a part of the Gunn universe.
18) Aquaman 2 - Thrown into the world without even having a red carpet world premiere (probably due to the bad streak the DC universe was on, not to mention being the closing movie of the universe). So far its at $258,875,070 worldwide which is really quite good considering the circumstances.
So what's the miss rate? It's debatable because we don't know the details of studio expectations, marketing budgets, etc. Personally I would put the miss rate (didn't meet expectations or even lost money) at 50%. The 9 I consider misses are
BVS, JL, BOP, WW2, TSS, BA, Shazam 2, The Flash, Blue Beetle. Aquaman 2 will likely lose money too, but it never even really had a chance.
OK, I CONSIDERED doing this analysis on the MCU but this took forever to write and nobody really cares what I have to say. Perhaps late I will just type up a summary.
1) MOS - met expectations. Made a lot more money than the previous Superman movie (Returns). A lot of people noisily complained about the violence/destruction and WB clearly listened leading to...
2) BvS - just below expectations but seemingly profitable. A movie bringing together the two best known characters in comic book history was probably expected to do Avengers level numbers. This didn't quite get there, but it still made a lot of money. Not a flop.
3) Suicide Squad - Way outperformed expectations. Made a huge profit despite middling reviews and generally negative public reaction. Also started all the rumors of WB meddling in movies as movie tone was changed post filming.
4) Wonder Woman - Mega hit. Successful at the box office, with critics, and with audiences.
5) Justice League - Made significant money, but still probably a loss. $661,324,295 worldwide is no joke - but a Justice League movie was definitely expected to do numbers comparable to Avengers movies. After all, this was the next appearance of Wonder Woman - and he solo movie made $822,963,408 worldwide. The movie also saw negative reviews on average. The worst thing to happen though was how this movie took studio meddling rumors (some confirmed) to a new level, with extensive reshoots changing the tone of the movie with a new director. The new tone didn't seem to match what came before.
Still, at this point the DCEU was 5/5 without a MAJOR flop, and arguably with only 2 box office "disappointments".
6) Aquaman - HUGE surprise hit. An unbelievable $1,151,961,807 worldwide gross. Anyone predicted $1,151,961,807 making more money than Superman, WW and especially the entire JUSTICE LEAGUE?
7) Shazam - Did ok enough at the box office to get a sequel. Generally liked by audience. Not a hit. Not a flop.
8) We're including Joker? Ok, another HUGE somewhat surprising mega hit.
9) Birds of Prey - Did the wheels start falling off here? Just $205,358,461 on an $84,500,000 budget. Not some kind of spectacular flop, but surely the studio expected more? Suicide Squad was a super hit at the box office, and many analysts ascribed that to Margot Robbie as Harley Quinn. Well, SS made $749,200,054 worldwide.
10) WW1984 - Can't judge the box office - it came out during the brutal winter covid wave and was released on HBO at the same time. Didn't do to well compared to some other day and date WB movies that came later, but this one was first and thus isn't fairly comparable to anything. So all we have to talk about is critical and viewer sentiment. 58% on RT and 5.4 on IMDB. Not scientific measurements in the slightest, but still definitely pointing to a negative audience and critical reaction - matching my anecdotal experience.
11) THE Suicide Squad - Another day and date movie, but later in the pandemic when more people had started being out and about. Still lost money theatrically despite being liked (90% on RT, 7.2 on IMDB) by critics and viewers, for the most part.
12) The Batman - A return to form at the box office for a DC movie - $772,245,583 worldwide. Not a part of the DCEU though, for which things were about to get so much worse!
13) Black Adam - $393,252,111 seems like a good box office for a villainous character movie without his main foil involved (no Shazam in this one). Still, the response by this studio seemed pretty negative, with rumors of The Rock leaking false information about the movie being profitable.
14) Shazam 2 - Uh oh. A bona-fide flop. Just $133,838,006 worldwide - a low number many couldn't imagine for a major comic book sequel just a few years before.
15) The Flash - Probably sealed the fate for any actors continuing their roles into the Gunn era. Despite some over the top early word of mouth calling it the best superhero movie ever, the audience and critical reaction was tepid, and the box office was a complete disappointment. $270,633,313 worldwide returns on a movie featuring the return of Batman '89? Shocking! Lets not forget that the actor strike and the tabloid hijinx of the lead could have played a role.
16) Batgirl - thrown in the trash by Zaslav. Lame.
17) Blue Beetle - This was meant to be a TV movie, so box office is hard to judge since the movie probably wasn't filmed with movie theaters in mind. Only made $129,288,072 worldwide though, so sadly its unlikely that this movie will be counted as being a part of the Gunn universe.
18) Aquaman 2 - Thrown into the world without even having a red carpet world premiere (probably due to the bad streak the DC universe was on, not to mention being the closing movie of the universe). So far its at $258,875,070 worldwide which is really quite good considering the circumstances.
So what's the miss rate? It's debatable because we don't know the details of studio expectations, marketing budgets, etc. Personally I would put the miss rate (didn't meet expectations or even lost money) at 50%. The 9 I consider misses are
BVS, JL, BOP, WW2, TSS, BA, Shazam 2, The Flash, Blue Beetle. Aquaman 2 will likely lose money too, but it never even really had a chance.
OK, I CONSIDERED doing this analysis on the MCU but this took forever to write and nobody really cares what I have to say. Perhaps late I will just type up a summary.
Plus the whole strike thing that had only recently been resolved, so scheduling was out the window for the event due to prohibitions on promoting works.
I think they are. "Television" means any electronic image transmitted over a distance, whether it's by radio waves, cable, or a computer network. It's not a reference to the device you watch the broadcasts on, it's a reference to the broadcasts themselves. We refer to the devices as "televisions," but that's short for "television set," i.e. a device that receives television signals.
More to the point, streaming is functionally interchangeable with television in terms of the nature and format of its programming, the process of its production, the talent involved in its creation, etc., and has largely taken over the same niche that television has played in the industry and the culture. These days, more and more people watch streaming TV on the same devices they use to watch broadcast or cable, making the distinction even more irrelevant. The only real difference is the artificial distinction studios have exploited in order to cheat the writers, actors, and staff of streaming programs out of the residuals and benefits they get from broadcast and cable programs, so there's very good reason to desire the erasure of that distinction.
Well, to me it seems that streaming programs tend to at least attempt to appear more "premium", like the old premium channels (HBO, Cinemax, etc).
Yes, and those are television channels, just cable television rather than broadcast TV. These days, pretty much all TV is cable TV, since most people get "broadcast" channels as part of their cable packages rather than using antennas.
And streaming TV runs the full gamut from ordinary to premium. The word "television" has nothing to do with the story content, purely with the transmission of moving electronic images.
I would agree with you that Man of Steel did well and met what ought to be considered any reasonable expectations under the circumstances, but it's always seemed clear to me that the studios expectations weren't actually reasonable and they always seemed to treat the film as a disappointment for some stupid reason.
Also, BvS certainly didn't lose money so I can agree it's not a complete flop, but it absolutely underperformed by a lot. It was a major disappointment (this time by actual reasonable standards). You say it 'didn't quite get there' in terms of comparing it to Avengers numbers, but 870m ww is literally over 600m less than Avengers made. You can fit almost a whole JL box office in that hole. And realistically, Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman in the same movie should have made more than Avengers, not just the same (BvS's monster opening weekend also pretty clearly shows that it would have if only audiences had enjoyed it enough to keep going after opening weekend).
I don't agree. If most was seen as a disappointment, why did they put Snyder in charge of the whole universe?
If it wasn't seen as a disappointment, why did they rush straight to their favorite trump card (Batman) and never even try to make another Superman movie for the entire lifetime of the DCEU? Wonder Woman got an entire trilogy announced (with two movies actually produced) in half the time.
As for why they put Snyder in charge of the universe, I believe they thought the results while disappointing were still certainly better than the traditional Superman (as evidence by Returns), therefore the problem in their mind was not necessarily Snyder but Superman himself. And they thought that if they doubled down on Synder's vision of a DC universe very different from the MCU but using more popular characters (Batman) they could still make a splash. Until BvS massively disappointed and they freaked out and started trying to retool everything to feel more like Marvel until they eventually produced their freakish monster of a Justice League movie.
I don't know the specifics in this case, but in general, there are more reasons than audience reaction shaping why filmmakers get jobs. What the audience sees is just the onstage stuff, and there's a ton of backstage stuff that the audience is unaware of but often matters more to the people in the business, like whether a filmmaker is professional, delivers their work on time and on budget, treats their coworkers well, has a good working or personal relationship with the people in charge, etc. So one poorly received movie isn't necessarily seen as a reason to fire someone who has an established career and is considered reliable in the grander scheme of things. After all, no player bats a thousand; what matters is the overall average, not a single game.
OK, so far so good...
The second paragraph swerves away completely from the point of view of the first. Whatever happened to the studio having unrealistic expectations? "BvS should have made TWO BILLION DOLLARSaaaarrrggh!!!" Says who? In any prior decade, who would have bought the premise that 874 million constitutes a flop?