Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[theenglish]

A divided fanbase is natural and should be expected. There's no IP or franchise that has ever been completely united in desire, interest, or what they do not like, as evidenced by the Bond movies, Star Trek TV shows and films, Star Wars, etc. IP holders may want a hive-minded audience, but that has never been a reality in the history of film, TV, or any other medium, as someone--or group will see any particular production as the worst trash ever hurled at a screen, while others think its gold running out of a camera.

That's all true, which is why the Gunn-verse success will depend on those outside the fandom. Of course, Gunn has his own fans at this point--but, his DCEU effort didn't exactly break box office records. WB wants those big numbers at this point and will not settle for less, so the pressure is now on Gunn to create something really special that will bring audiences out.

I actually agree, but the Marvel (& DC) suits will inevitably want Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne, and they and the shareholders will get it.

Our best hope will be that the creatives will make a decent job of it.

What's interesting about that is that Iron Man was not a major Marvel character prior to the 2008 movie's breakout success. At that point, Marvel was pulling from their less well know characters because Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, and X-Men were all franchises they couldn't use. It is very possible that the future of the MCU may be more FF and X-centric--and that has the potential to be highly successful.

 

[Christopher]

What's interesting about that is that Iron Man was not a major Marvel character prior to the 2008 movie's breakout success. At that point, Marvel was pulling from their less well know characters because Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, and X-Men were all franchises they couldn't use. It is very possible that the future of the MCU may be more FF and X-centric--and that has the potential to be highly successful.

Yeah -- I really hope they continue to move forward instead of doing the cowardly and creatively lazy thing of rehashing what worked in the past. Studios always get it wrong by thinking that success is about what the work is about rather than how it's done. The MCU didn't work because it focused on Iron Man and Thor -- characters who, as you say, were considered B-listers at best before then -- but because it told their stories with skill and creativity and pushed the envelope of what superhero movies could be. The key to keep it going is to keep pushing the envelope, keep trying new things with new characters -- or in this case, old characters that are new to the MCU (yet could ironically bring it closer to being like the traditional Marvel Universe).

Worth noting that there's a history of this for DC too. For a long time, Superman was DC's flagship character and Batman & Robin were the first runners-up. The '66 series raised Batman's profile for a while, but was largely considered an embarrassment thereafter, and Superman rebounded big with Christopher Reeve. But then the Burton Batman movies and B:TAS happened, and Batman has since become DC's perennial, essential character, eclipsing Superman.

 

[Anwar]

'Succeeding' on streaming is like being the the 8th Grader who can beat up the Kindergartens. Quantumania still lost hundreds of millions theatrically. It did not turn a profit regardless of streaming.

"What If" is successful? Lol. Not even close. Wait for the Nielson ratings


And what people wanting to see Echo? Lol. They are dumping Echo all on one day. That doesn't show much confidence for the inevitable mess that it will be.

And it made up for those theatrical losses and ultimately did not lose money thanks to the Streaming. Which will repeat with the Marvels.

Yes, it is. Moreso than Netflix Marvel was.

The millions who changes their tune and saw her trailer. They dumped on her and predictably couldn't stick to their guns once they saw the trailer.

Similar to how everyone laughed at the idea of Daredevil getting a show in 2015 until they saw it.

 

[Set Harth]

And it made up for those theatrical losses and ultimately did not lose money thanks to the Streaming.

You mean people who bought the digital version?

 

[JoeZhang]

There is no way The Marvels makes less than a Billion!

The Marvels will still be a big smash!

The Marvels will still break even.

The Marvels will not make much of a loss.

It’s not technically the biggest bomb in cinema history.

How do we not know it’s not profitable on streaming?

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

^ IOW, desperation-speak to keep a long-ailing franchise alive.

 

[Anwar]

There is no way The Marvels makes less than a Billion!

The Marvels will still be a big smash!

The Marvels will still break even.

The Marvels will not make much of a loss.

It’s not technically the biggest bomb in cinema history.

How do we not know it’s not profitable on streaming?

Funny how it's the Marvels being singled out for this abuse, but no one is hurling this at Aquaman 2 despite the original also being a billion dollar maker.

 

[Relayer1]

Funny how it's the Marvels being singled out for this abuse, but no one is hurling this at Aquaman 2 despite the original also being a billion dollar maker.

Despite liking Momoa, Aquaman was bad enough to prevent me watching a sequel.

For DC, it's a leftover, so apart from the money (!) it'll probably not be that crucial to their plans going for - they've already had their rethink.

 

[TerryTrek]

And it made up for those theatrical losses and ultimately did not lose money thanks to the Streaming. Which will repeat with the Marvels.

That's nonsense. Streaming didn't generate the hundreds of millions in losses that those films incurred.

Quantumania and the Marvels are still major financial failures, regardless of streaming.

Yes, it is. Moreso than Netflix Marvel was.

The millions who changes their tune and saw her trailer. They dumped on her and predictably couldn't stick to their guns once they saw the trailer.

Similar to how everyone laughed at the idea of Daredevil getting a show in 2015 until they saw it.

You're making massive generalizations. I'm curious where you're getting this about 'people changing their tune' on Echo.

Ultimately, Disney is dumping all the episodes at once and that's a red flag about the potential mess ahead.

 

[MikHutch]

Not everything has to be doom and gloom though. Frankly I find mcu discussions online to be needlessly negative.

 

[TerryTrek]

As for the current 2023 state of the MCU, no doubt two of the movies took a financial hit (which doesn't necessarily reflect the quality of the films themselves) and Secret Invasion was a critical failure; however, What If? has been successful and Echo has a lot of anticipation around it. As for the other characters introduced in recent years, Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, and Moon Knight were all enjoyable to watch and have a lot of potential. We have a new Hawkeye, Black Panther and Black Widow who are enjoyable successors to those roles. There is a lot of potential going forward.

Theatrical audiences are not going to turn out for those mediocre D+ characters. The Marvels really showed that.

And notably Miss Marvel was also a viewership failure on D+.

The MCU is missing it's RDJ, or an actor of similar charisma to really draw in a 4-quadrant audience. Without that and characters that majority audiences care about, it will just be one fail after the next.

Why do you hate the MCU so much? It seems like you're really enjoying this, more than just someone who's been disappointed by a couple movies.

The MCU was great for the first 10 years. I'm finding it's very public decline (and Disney's in general) more entertaining than their mediocre films themselves.

It's so fascinating to see a franchise at the top of it's game make all the wrong decisions (driven by corporate mismanagement) and devolve to the state it's in today. Even from a business analytical POV, it's been nuts.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Some people just like attention.

 

[Anwar]

That's nonsense. Streaming didn't generate the hundreds of millions in losses that those films incurred.

Actually, it did. The losses of Quantumania were exaggerated, and we'll see it happen again with the Marvels when it's on D+

You're making massive generalizations. I'm curious where you're getting this about 'people changing their tune' on Echo.

The reaction to the trailers, all the "No one wants this!" types all switched to "Wow, I want to see this!" predictably.

As for Ms Marvel, her show was a critical hit. And "low views" don't mean much, considering Breaking Bad had low viewership for around half it's run. So saying "No one wants to see the D+ characters" is a baseless statement. After all, we kept hearing about wanting to see the Netflix shows characters in the movies and their shows were much worse.

Ultimately, Disney is dumping all the episodes at once and that's a red flag about the potential mess ahead.

Oh but when Netflix and Amazon Prime do it, it's fine?

I expected this kind of fickle attitude.

 

[fireproof78]

Oh but when Netflix and Amazon Prime do it, it's fine?

Don't be ridiculous.

It's bad when Paramount does it too.

The MCU is missing it's RDJ, or an actor of similar charisma to really draw in a 4-quadrant audience. Without that and characters that majority audiences care about, it will just be one fail after the next.

Don't be ridiculous. It had failures even with RDJ.

They just push onward because they have a plan.

 

[JoeZhang]

Funny how it's the Marvels being singled out for this abuse, but no one is hurling this at Aquaman 2 despite the original also being a billion dollar maker.

Everyone including its star accepts its a bomb - there is not much to talk about. Here we have attempts to construct alternative fantasy realities where it is a successful film based on streaming in outer Mongolia etc and the public is desperate for the Young Avengers.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

For DC, it's a leftover, so apart from the money (!) it'll probably not be that crucial to their plans going for - they've already had their rethink.

Precisely: Aquaman 2 is the very end of the DCEU, and considering why this franchise has reached its end, some audiences may not care about a film with plots / threads having no consequence for the character or any others in that film universe.

That's nonsense. Streaming didn't generate the hundreds of millions in losses that those films incurred.

True, but you realize some will pull any unsubstantiated fantasy about invisible audiences out of thin air due to suffering from a "Marvel must win!!" mentality.

Quantumania and the Marvels are still major financial failures, regardless of streaming.

The numbers for the former are already in, and yes, it was and remains a financial failure.

You're making massive generalizations.I'm curious where you're getting this about 'people changing their tune' on Echo.

Same here.

Theatrical audiences are not going to turn out for those mediocre D+ characters. The Marvels really showed that.

...and if the star--of The Marvels--the supposed feature character of the sequel could not draw in audiences, the D+ characters were never going to matter much, or stabilize their big screen legs, which have already been tripped up in a bad film.

And notably Miss Marvel was also a viewership failure on D+

Indeed.

The MCU is missing it's RDJ, or an actor of similar charisma to really draw in a 4-quadrant audience. Without that and characters that majority audiences care about, it will just be one fail after the next.

Possibly, but I fear some forthcoming MCU films--like Cap4--may lose the original, "paranoid political thriller" identity through re-shoots in order to force-fit it into the kind of plotting necessary for a Secret Wars plot.

Everyone including its star accepts its a bomb - there is not much to talk about. Here we have attempts to construct alternative fantasy realities where it is a successful film based on streaming in outer Mongolia etc and the public is desperate for the Young Avengers.

Yes, the desperation has set in, when anyone with a basic awareness of film franchise history knows most long-running series inevitably take a creative/earnings turn for the worst. Some feel the need to claw for very morsel of self-created hope that every MCU production is going to be The Avengers films all over again. That was never going to happen with many of the characters/scripts Disney/Marvel picked for adaptation. Hell, Marvel's comics have never enjoyed that kind of across-the-board success at any point in its publishing history, weighed down with too many bloated "event" titles, spin-offs, etc.

 

[Anwar]

Everyone including its star accepts its a bomb - there is not much to talk about. Here we have attempts to construct alternative fantasy realities where it is a successful film based on streaming in outer Mongolia etc and the public is desperate for the Young Avengers.

I don't see anyone saying Aquaman 2 is a prime example why "no one wants male superheroes" while the Marvels is singled out for "I want every female superhero to never ever get any leading stories ever. Just men"

 

[JoeZhang]

I don't see anyone saying Aquaman 2 is a prime example why "no one wants male superheroes" while the Marvels is singled out for "I want every female superhero to never ever get any leading stories ever. Just men"

Can you find a quote here of that type? If so link to it.

 

[Anwar]

Can you find a quote here of that type? If so link to it.

I'm talking in general.

Precisely: Aquaman 2 is the very end of the DCEU, and considering why this franchise has reached its end, some audiences may not care about a film with plots / threads having no consequence for the character or any others in that film universe.

Excuses, excuses.

The numbers for the former are already in, and yes, it was and remains a financial failure.

We won't know that until the Marvels gets on D+

Same here.

Read the comments on the trailers

...and if the star--of The Marvels--the supposed feature character of the sequel could not draw in audiences, the D+ characters were never going to matter much, or stabilize their big screen legs, which have already been tripped up in a bad film.

Uh huh, is that why we kept hearing about how great it would be for the Netflix characters to show up in the movies even though the Netflix shows were inferior to D+'s?

Indeed.

So was Breaking Bad when it started.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Excuses, excuses.

Says the guy who habitually posts nonsensical fantasies about streaming bolstering the disastrous box office for Ant-Man 3 and predicting it will help The Marvels--a film few wanted to see.

Uh huh, is that why we kept hearing about how great it would be for the Netflix characters to show up in the movies even though the Netflix shows were inferior to D+'s?

^Tap-shuffle-tap.

The Marvels is the subject, and its a historic box office failure with a lead character who could not draw audiences back to theaters, and supporting players next to no one cared about going into the film's release.