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writers' strike and Trek

I mean, it's all a matter of degree.

That's exactly the illusion people keep falling for. Memory is unreliable, because we gloss over the rough bits to smooth things out. We convince ourselves that older Trek was more consistent than it actually was, because we get in the habit of rationalizing or excusing its contradictions and learning to think of them as "minor." So the new ones always seem huger to us.

And even if some of the changes are bigger, so what? It's fiction. It's an invention for the benefit of an audience. An audience today is going to be massively different from an audience 50 years ago or 30 years ago, so naturally the differences in the presentation of the fiction are going to be proportionally greater to keep up with the audience's evolution. It's all just stories. You can change the story as you go, improve the way you tell it.


ENT had a relatively easy fix for the Klingon foreheads (which a novel then adapted to retcon the Trill differences between TNG and DS9). Reconciling NuTrek and past Trek might take a temporal wars or crisis on infinite earths style miniseries.

It doesn't have to be reconciled. The Klingon foreheads didn't have to be reconciled. Roddenberry's view was that Klingons had always had ridges. The change wasn't an event within the story (diegetic), it was a revision in how the story was told (extradiegetic).

Of course, SNW already offered a diegetic explanation for the changed depiction of the Eugenics Wars in "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow," establishing that 20th- and early 21st-century history have been altered by temporal interventionists in order to explain why we didn't have Eugenics Wars in the 1990s or the Millennium Gate in 2000 or whatever. Although the premise is that counter-interventionists or the inertia of the timeline caused things to converge back on their original path by the 22nd or 23rd century, so that events are still pretty much the same then, down to details like Pike being fleet captain when Kirk met him. But yeah, if you like, you can use that as a handwave for the superficial differences in set design and whatnot.


TOS novel wise, it probably comes down to what the market research says. There's likely a good reason all those TOS stand alones kept coming out when the Berman era post NEM went quite serialized.

The explicit job of tie-ins, the reason they're called that, is to follow the lead of the onscreen franchise. If the onscreen franchise purports that all Trek series are a single reality -- which is exactly what it does purport despite any changes in how it presents that reality -- then our job as novelists is to depict it that way. That has nothing to do with the standalone vs. serial difference you mention, because that's a matter of whether the novels agree with each other. All novels are obliged to agree with the onscreen canon as it exists at the time of their writing, regardless of whether they're consistent with one another or not.


Ok, this helps to identify a major live wire and point of disagreement. Many would object to essentially re-writing the past, and preferring Star Trek to be a period piece.

I'll never understand people who only want fiction to remind them of what they already think and know, rather than offering them new possibilities and new understandings. I mean, that's the whole purpose of art.


I mean, they could have done a xenomorph without tying it into the Gorn. But they chose to go that route anyway.

I hate everything SNW has done with the Gorn. But that doesn't make SNW an alternate reality from the rest. There's plenty of stuff in the older series that I didn't like. This is the nostalgia illusion -- people choose to focus on the good parts of the past and not think much about the parts they disliked, so they fool themselves into believing that the past was better than the present. They forget that every Trek series had its bad parts and its dumb parts and its inconsistent parts. We didn't like it because it was perfect, we liked it because the good parts were good enough that we were willing to live with the bad parts and the middling parts. As long as I remember that, I'm able to judge the newer shows in the same way.
 
Memory is unreliable, because we gloss over the rough bits to smooth things out. We convince ourselves that older Trek was more consistent than it actually was, because we get in the habit of rationalizing or excusing its contradictions and learning to think of them as "minor." So the new ones always seem huger to us.
Absolutely. I re-watched "A Taste of Armegeddon" recently and Spock still referred to his people as Vulcanians. At nearly the end of first season! I had not remembered that.
 
Absolutely. I re-watched "A Taste of Armegeddon" recently and Spock still referred to his people as Vulcanians. At nearly the end of first season! I had not remembered that.

Yeah, season 1 used both "Vulcanian" and "Vulcan" kind of interchangeably.

Though a people having more than one demonym isn't hard to reconcile. I was thinking of bigger continuity issues, like Lt. Leslie dying in "Obsession" but being fine the next week. Or "The Deadly Years" having a bunch of Romulan ships inside the Neutral Zone even though it's supposed to be an automatic act of war for either side to enter it (though many later series have made that same stupid mistake, as if they don't understand what the word "neutral" means). Or Spock treating pon farr as a shameful secret that had to be dragged out of him in "Amok Time," then just casually blabbing about it to a stranger in "The Cloud Minders."
 
It doesn't have to be reconciled. The Klingon foreheads didn't have to be reconciled. Roddenberry's view was that Klingons had always had ridges. The change wasn't an event within the story (diegetic), it was a revision in how the story was told (extradiegetic).

If Klingons were always meant to have ridges ( IIRC Roddenberry or others involved in TOS said the Klingons" rather simplistic look /not having ridges in TOS was a budget limitation), then why do they not have ridges in the animated Star Trek?
 
If Klingons always were meant to have ridges ( IIRC Roddenberry or others involved in TOS said not having ridges was a budget limitation), then why do they not gave ridges in the animated Star Trek?
I don't think that's true. IIRC, the original Klingon make up was a collaboration between make up artist Fred Philips and actor John Colicos.
 
If Klingons were always meant to have ridges ( IIRC Roddenberry or others involved in TOS said the Klingons" rather simplistic look /not having ridges in TOS was a budget limitation), then why do they not have ridges in the animated Star Trek?
Budget limitations. :whistle:
 
If Klingons were always meant to have ridges ( IIRC Roddenberry or others involved in TOS said the Klingons" rather simplistic look /not having ridges in TOS was a budget limitation), then why do they not have ridges in the animated Star Trek?

You're taking it too literally. Roddenberry wasn't saying they were actually intended to have ridges in 1967; he was saying, "Let's retroactively pretend the Klingons always had ridges and TOS just got it wrong." At most, he was saying that if TOS had had the budget and technology, he would've wanted the Klingons to have a more elaborate, alien-like makeup than they did, even if not that specific one.

Like I said, it was an extradiegetic change in how the story was told. The process of creating art is a process of trial and error and revision and changing one's mind. In the case of a singular work, that all happens before it's released, but in the case of an ongoing series, it happens along the way. So sometimes things get retroactively changed, but the fiction pretends that's how they always were. Like when TOS depicted the Enterprise as solely an Earth ship in the first half of season 1, but then invented the Federation and pretended it had always been there. Or how TOS never used the term "mind-meld" until season 3, and then only twice (using mind touch, mind link, mind fusion, mind probe, etc. instead), but everything from TMP onward, prequels included, has treated "mind-meld" as the exclusive term. Series fiction entails the gradual adjustment and refinement of how you depict the universe, but it's meant to be the same consistent universe within the story. So the pretense is that it was "always" that way but the earlier installments were inaccurate.
 
You're taking it too literally. Roddenberry wasn't saying they were actually intended to have ridges in 1967; he was saying, "Let's retroactively pretend the Klingons always had ridges and TOS just got it wrong." At most, he was saying that if TOS had had the budget and technology, he would've wanted the Klingons to have a more elaborate, alien-like makeup than they did, even if not that specific one.

Like I said, it was an extradiegetic change in how the story was told. The process of creating art is a process of trial and error and revision and changing one's mind. In the case of a singular work, that all happens before it's released, but in the case of an ongoing series, it happens along the way. So sometimes things get retroactively changed, but the fiction pretends that's how they always were. Like when TOS depicted the Enterprise as solely an Earth ship in the first half of season 1, but then invented the Federation and pretended it had always been there. Or how TOS never used the term "mind-meld" until season 3, and then only twice (using mind touch, mind link, mind fusion, mind probe, etc. instead), but everything from TMP onward, prequels included, has treated "mind-meld" as the exclusive term. Series fiction entails the gradual adjustment and refinement of how you depict the universe, but it's meant to be the same consistent universe within the story. So the pretense is that it was "always" that way but the earlier installments were inaccurate.

Point taken. Still, I would of thought the animated show would of been an opportunity to enhance the Klingons (and other TOS aliens') look.

I think if Trials and Tribbleations was never made,they would of done just as you stated re The Klingons. My guess is that the writers of that episode wanted to honor the original Klingon look during the anniversary. And showing them without ridges was something they felt warranted some response (even if it was in jest) considering Worf was there and the Klingons were heavily featured on DS9 at the time.

In retrospect, I would have shown the Klingons with faint ridges (ala Chang in STVI) in "Trials".
Realize Koloth in Blood Oath had the more pronounced ridges. But remember Worfs ridges changed from S1 and S2 of TNG without canon explanation. Would of been ok with Koloth (and the other TOS Klingons) in that same vein.
I'm ok with what ENT did, but in hindsight, probably best thing to do was to retcon the Klingons as to always having ridges.
 
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Point taken. Still, I would of thought the animated show would of been an opportunity to enhance the Klingons (and aliens') look.

TAS had enough exotic aliens of its own that it didn't need to. I figure that, since the Klingons were the most prominently featured aliens in TMP (despite being totally irrelevant to the story after the opening), they were deemed to be the ones that should be used to showcase the advance in makeup technology since TOS. There were plenty of alien extras in the background in the Starfleet/Enterprise scenes, but none that got any significant attention.


I think if Trails and Tribbleations was never made,they would of done just as you stated re The Klingons. My guess is that the writers of that episode wanted to honor the original Klingon look during the anniversary.

Rather, they were forced to acknowledge it because they were incorporating stock footage from "Tribbles" into the episode. They were decades away from having the digital technology to alter the appearance of the "Tribbles" Klingons.
 
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A certain degree of respect is beneficial.

Trek should be wise to respect itself.

Of course, but it's a mistake to assume that "respect" means "copy decades-old set and makeup designs." What made Star Trek stand out from its contemporaries and become iconic, both in the TOS and TNG eras, was that it pushed the envelope beyond them. It aspired to greater intelligence, plausibility, and production values than the other shows of its time. So respecting Trek's past doesn't mean copying its look. It means respecting the aspirations of the originals, striving to be as innovative and boundary-pushing as they were. The originals would have used more sophisticated makeup and set designs if they'd had the means to. So updating the look is respecting the past -- the intent of it, rather than the ways it was forced to fall short by past limitations.


Star Trek is not The Expanse or Andor and would not benefit from trying to ape either show.

But shows like The Expanse and Andor occupy the same niche that TOS and TNG did in their day -- SF shows that are smarter, more sophisticated, and better-made than most of their contemporaries. If anything, Trek has fallen out of its traditional role as the most sophisticated and well-made space show in TV, because the rest of SFTV has caught up to it and surpassed it. Which is all the more reason that it's bad for Trek to be too driven by nostalgia and looking backward, because then it will just get left further behind.
 
We live in an age of the Expanse, Andor and other space shows.

A certain degree of respect is beneficial.

Trek should be wise to respect itself.
Define respect.

What I see with "respect" is "copy and paste what worked before" or "self-referential" to the point that new viewers struggles to get in. "Respect" has come to mean "don't change anything" from my view and that needlessly limits Star Trek's possibilities when it used to be very forward looking, using visions of popular technology as possibilities in to the future. There felt like more possibility, not go back and revisit.

Trek would be wise to respect itself, except somewhere it decided that itself was best servered as being needlessly insular.
 
Star Trek is not The Expanse or Andor and would not benefit from trying to ape either show.
It would depend on what is it trying to ape...

Of course, but it's a mistake to assume that "respect" means "copy decades-old set and makeup designs." What made Star Trek stand out from its contemporaries and become iconic, both in the TOS and TNG eras, was that it pushed the envelope beyond them. It aspired to greater intelligence, plausibility, and production values than the other shows of its time. So respecting Trek's past doesn't mean copying its look. It means respecting the aspirations of the originals, striving to be as innovative and boundary-pushing as they were. The originals would have used more sophisticated makeup and set designs if they'd had the means to. So updating the look is respecting the past -- the intent of it, rather than the ways it was forced to fall short by past limitations.
Plausibility in what sense?

If anything, Trek has fallen out of its traditional role as the most sophisticated and well-made space show in TV, because the rest of SFTV has caught up to it and surpassed it. Which is all the more reason that it's bad for Trek to be too driven by nostalgia and looking backward, because then it will just get left further behind.
I fail to see why bad Trek cannot be driven by not nostalgic reasons.

Define respect.

What I see with "respect" is "copy and paste what worked before" or "self-referential" to the point that new viewers struggles to get in. "Respect" has come to mean "don't change anything" from my view and that needlessly limits Star Trek's possibilities when it used to be very forward looking, using visions of popular technology as possibilities in to the future. There felt like more possibility, not go back and revisit.

Trek would be wise to respect itself, except somewhere it decided that itself was best servered as being needlessly insular.
It is like pornography you know it when you see it.
 
Plausibility in what sense?

Like knowing enough grade-school science to know you can't get to other star systems by using rockets or drifting around on a rogue Moon. Like knowing what the word "galaxy" means. The rest of SFTV in the '60s through the '80s was so idiotic that even the most basic scientific literacy was a cut above. Roddenberry was one of the only SFTV producers ever to consult with scientists and engineers and think tanks to get the science relatively right, which is why Trek inspired a generation or two of viewers to become physicists and engineers and astronauts. It took its share of liberties for dramatic license and budgetary reasons, but compared to its peers, it was vastly more believable. More importantly, Roddenberry stressed writing characters naturalistically rather than as larger-than-life or cartoonish figures. The second-season TOS writers' bible devoted its first three pages to an extended rant about making sure your characters behaved as believably as they would in any present-day drama.

Unfortunately, modern Trek has not followed suit where the science is concerned. These days, it's The Expanse that carries the banner of scientific plausibility in SFTV. (And maybe For All Mankind? I haven't seen that yet.) Trek used to be the standout, head and shoulders above the rest; now it's just one more show in the pack.


I fail to see why bad Trek cannot be driven by not nostalgic reasons.

That's not what I said.
 
Hell, the premiere episode of DSC referenced the Battle of Donatu V between the Klingons and the Federation. That's an historical event even the Berman Era never bothered to mention.
 
Hell, the premiere episode of DSC referenced the Battle of Donatu V between the Klingons and the Federation. That's an historical event even the Berman Era never bothered to mention.

That was the second episode of DSC, in fact. The first episode had Georgiou say "Almost no one has seen a Klingon in a hundred years," so the mention of Donatu V in the second episode always felt to me like an attempt to paper over the continuity glitch. Although I guess the battle could've been fought ship-to-ship without visual communication, or the officers who saw Klingons at Donatu V were the reason for the "almost" in Georgiou's line.
 
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