Spoilers Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny grade and discussion

[Starkers]

Well, unlike No Time to Die, it at least didn't introduce a new character who had a fraction of the protagonist's muscle mass and almost no prior fighting experience, but who proved themselves to be as badass as the hero through sheer gumption and cheerfulness. (Ana de Armas' Paloma exited that movie quickly enough for it to more or less recover its dignity, but, yikes.)

I'll absolutely give you the muscle mass but I think it's clear that the three week's training line is a lie/joke.

Interesting correlation though. Paloma was by all accounts a dull, one note character before one Phoebe Waller-Bridge got her hands on the script and helped her become one of the highlights of the film (YMMV obviously)

 

[Dee1891]

So . . . this problem with the fifth Indiana Jones movie is all about gender politics?

 

[Anwar]

So . . . this problem with the fifth Indiana Jones movie is all about gender politics?

It's more that over the last 6 years there's been a huge misogynistic backlash, especially when women are introduced into what were traditionally White Male Supremacy series (Star Wars, MCU, Indiana Jones).

 

[Set Harth]

Star Wars has had women kicking ass since 1977 and the leader of the rebels was a woman.

 

[Tosk]

I guess "they" don't mind that though because at least she had to be rescued.

 

[Starkers]

So . . . this problem with the fifth Indiana Jones movie is all about gender politics?

For some people. Really the main problem with the film is just that it cost too damn much to make! It's incredible to think this cost almost twice as much as Villeneuve's Dune to make.

 

[Tuskin38]

So . . . this problem with the fifth Indiana Jones movie is all about gender politics?

there is no problem.

 

[Gaith]

I'll absolutely give you the muscle mass but I think it's clear that the three week's training line is a lie/joke.

I thought it was three weeks' field experience? I'm sure the character had had the expected amount of martial arts training, but training and field experience aren't the same thing. But mostly definitely the muscle mass, yeah.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

Really the main problem with the film is just that it cost too damn much to make! It's incredible to think this cost almost twice as much as Villeneuve's Dune to make.

Disney's had one of the worst years in Hollywood studio history.
All their 2023 theatrical releases, with the exception of GotG 3, have lost money in the theatrical window, varying from mildly underperformed like The Little Mermaid to absolute disasters like Haunted Mansion, The Marvels, and Wish
Yet, Disney also sold more movie tickets than any other studio in Hollywood this year.
It really is all about the budgets. And marketing. Haunted Mansion had no business being released in the summer when it could have run way better as an early October release.

 

[Starkers]

I thought it was three weeks' field experience? I'm sure the character had had the expected amount of martial arts training, but training and field experience aren't the same thing. But mostly definitely the muscle mass, yeah.

It is training, I rewatched that scene just the other night

Disney's had one of the worst years in Hollywood studio history.
All their 2023 theatrical releases, with the exception of GotG 3, have lost money in the theatrical window, varying from mildly underperformed like The Little Mermaid to absolute disasters like Haunted Mansion, The Marvels, and Wish
Yet, Disney also sold more movie tickets than any other studio in Hollywood this year.
It really is all about the budgets. And marketing. Haunted Mansion had no business being released in the summer when it could have run way better as an early October release.

Yeah they've got to find a way of getting costs down.

And I'll never understand releasing ghost related films in the summer.

 

[Gaith]

It is training, I rewatched that scene just the other night

Yikes, then. Maybe the only reasonable interpretation is it was a joke on the character's part, but I'm not sure the movie intended it that way...

Paloma was by all accounts a dull, one note character before one Phoebe Waller-Bridge got her hands on the script and helped her become one of the highlights of the film (YMMV obviously)

Even in the theater, I was wondering why the character was there at all. All she did was give Bond a jacket and shoot a few mooks before excusing herself? In an already overlong movie, she should have been cut in the script stage.

 

[Anwar]

Star Wars has had women kicking ass since 1977 and the leader of the rebels was a woman.

Leia was not a well done character, she stopped being strong after the first movie and just got weaker and weaker. Mon Mothma isn't prominent enough either. Star Wars has never been good with women.

 

[Set Harth]

Anakin was a well done character. I guess you could say Owen and Beru were extra well done.

 

[JD]

Well, unlike No Time to Die, it at least didn't introduce a new character who had a fraction of the protagonist's muscle mass and almost no prior fighting experience,

You don't need muscle mass to be able to fight or be a "badass" there are plenty of tiny people who can kick ass. It's not about having a lot of big muscles, it's about how you use what you have.

 

[Nightowl1701]

Excerpted from Bill Hunt of The Digital Bits' mostly-positive review:

"For those who claim the film is somehow 'too woke,' my suggestion would be to go back and watch Howard Hawks’ His Girl Friday (1940) and The Big Sleep (1946), Billy Wilder’s Double Indemnity (1944), and Orson Welles’ The Lady from Shanghai (1947). Yes, Waller-Bridge’s Helena gives Indy the business early on, but it’s also clear that she loves him, needs him, and most importantly respects him by the end (and, in fact, has done all along)...

I suspect what people really mean when they [complain about Indy being somehow a 'passenger in his own film'] is that they wish Steven Spielberg and George Lucas had gotten their shit together to make a dozen more Indy films while Ford was still in his prime. And man… I get it. But that’s why Mangold cleverly begins Dial by giving us forty minutes of premium Indy, which is a helluva lot more than I ever expected to see again. And despite the fact that the digital de-aging isn’t perfect, it’s still pretty damn good. Ultimately, I think some fans just don’t like seeing their heroes age, or become anything less than invincible. But that’s just life. (And the older you get, the more you come to understand it.)"

 

[fireproof78]

Ultimately, I think some fans just don’t like seeing their heroes age, or become anything less than invincible. But that’s just life. (And the older you get, the more you come to understand it.)"

I believe this is exactly it. Aging is regarded as evil and heroes are not to age but remain forever ensconced as in their primes.

 

[Starkers]

Yikes, then. Maybe the only reasonable interpretation is it was a joke on the character's part, but I'm not sure the movie intended it that way...

Even in the theater, I was wondering why the character was there at all. All she did was give Bond a jacket and shoot a few mooks before excusing herself? In an already overlong movie, she should have been cut in the script stage.

There's other stuff I'd have looked to cut before that to be honest. Paloma was a nice call back to more fun Bond films (and I say that as someone who likes the silly and the serious Bond films). The Cuba scene would have likely still happened, it just wouldn't have been as much fun. Again IMO obviously.

Leia was not a well done character, she stopped being strong after the first movie and just got weaker and weaker. Mon Mothma isn't prominent enough either. Star Wars has never been good with women.

I don't agree with that. You can argue she became more vulnerable because of her affection for Han and Luke, but if anything she gets more agency and action in Empire and Jedi. She's the one who takes the lead in escaping from Cloud City/trying to save Han, and she kills Jabba with her bare hands before becoming an integral part of the attack on Endor.

As for Mothma I don't know how anyone can say that after Andor. Woman sacrificed her husband's reputation and her daughter's very future for the rebellion. Not to mention that she's living a secret double life in the very heart of the Empire.

Excerpted from Bill Hunt of The Digital Bits' mostly-positive review:

"For those who claim the film is somehow 'too woke,' my suggestion would be to go back and watch Howard Hawks’ His Girl Friday (1940) and The Big Sleep (1946), Billy Wilder’s Double Indemnity (1944), and Orson Welles’ The Lady from Shanghai (1947). Yes, Waller-Bridge’s Helena gives Indy the business early on, but it’s also clear that she loves him, needs him, and most importantly respects him by the end (and, in fact, has done all along)...

I suspect what people really mean when they [complain about Indy being somehow a 'passenger in his own film'] is that they wish Steven Spielberg and George Lucas had gotten their shit together to make a dozen more Indy films while Ford was still in his prime. And man… I get it. But that’s why Mangold cleverly begins Dial by giving us forty minutes of premium Indy, which is a helluva lot more than I ever expected to see again. And despite the fact that the digital de-aging isn’t perfect, it’s still pretty damn good. Ultimately, I think some fans just don’t like seeing their heroes age, or become anything less than invincible. But that’s just life. (And the older you get, the more you come to understand it.)"

Absolutely. If you want an Indy film featuring an 80 year old Ford (and even taking into account that Indy's supposed to be younger he isn't much younger) you have to accept that he can't do the things he once did. I mean maybe people would have preferred it if they'd bought back Shia and there'd been a young man to do the heavy lifting (not that Helena did that much of the heavy lifting anyway.) I'm biased because I have a lot of time for PWB but I thought she was great.

 

[Rowdy Roddy McDowall]

I suspect what people really mean when they [complain about Indy being somehow a 'passenger in his own film']

Surprises and change-of-paces can be nice. One reason I loved CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER is because action-hero Harrison Ford was forced to become a getaway driver during a critical point, while leaving all the shooting to the professionals throughout.

 

[Gaith]

You don't need muscle mass to be able to fight or be a "badass" there are plenty of tiny people who can kick ass. It's not about having a lot of big muscles, it's about how you use what you have.

It's generally very much about having big muscles when a trained fighter fights another trained fighter. And I'm not the one who said muscle mass was important in this series; Casino Royale did, when it ogled Bond's body. For No Time to Die to say "never mind, all a shorter, thin combatant really needs is an adorkable, plucky attitude" undermines the whole Craig run.

Yes, Waller-Bridge’s Helena gives Indy the business early on, but it’s also clear that she loves him, needs him, and most importantly respects him by the end (and, in fact, has done all along)...

Lying to, emotionally manipulating, and stealing from someone isn't respectful or loving. That said, my problem with Helena isn't her "giving Indy the business," it's about how she's established to be a selfish, amoral crook, and then the movie immediately forgets about all her personality faults and criminal history the moment it's no longer convenient to the story, which is sloppy writing. And it's no good to say "well, she put all her selfishness to the side, owing to the emergency of the situation," because, as I've argued above, neither she nor Indy have any reason whatsoever to believe that Voller's time-travel aims have any plausible chance of success. Okay, Indy may figure better to be safe than sorry, given his experience with the uncanny, but she has no such background. When Indy tells her they need to urgently work together to save the world, the Helena established up to that point should have laughed in his face and called him delusional, not furrowed her brow and politely agreed.

I don't know about anyone else, but I think a female character whose writing is credited to four men should be well-written in order to earn praise, instead praising those men for doing mediocre work just because they wrote a female character. Call me a feminist, I guess.

 

[UssGlenn]

When Indy tells her they need to urgently work together to save the world, the Helena established up to that point should have laughed in his face and called him delusional, not furrowed her brow and politely agreed.

Yeah, the only reason she was after the dial was to sell it, and the movie never gives us reason to think that's a cover for purer motives. There are multiple points when she should have cut her losses, especially after getting a bag full of diamonds and an ancient gold disk as a payday.