I like Ezri, but...

[Ragitsu]

I knew Andrew Robinson was playing Garak that way (until the powers that be told him to stop), but didn't know Siddig was going that route as well.

Strong but sensitive.

 

[vulcancicada]

I knew Andrew Robinson was playing Garak that way (until the powers that be told him to stop), but didn't know Siddig was going that route as well.

And let's be clear, having a crush on a person isn't "pathetic". It's normal human (and undoubtedly Cardassian as well) behavior.

Siddig has said this in interviews.

I have had a few pathetic crushes in my time but, sure...

 

[Oddish]

Me too. Just about everyone does.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Could the Ezri character work without the Dax baggage?

 

[DonIago]

Given that the character was created in part to take advantage of her backstory, I don't think I understand the question.

 

[Crazyewok]

They made him inept at the end, yes. But the Gowron I followed from TNG to the reinstatement of the Khitomer Accords seemed to have his stuff together. And in any case, if Worf was going to kill Gowron, he should have been ready to wear the coat himself.

Gordon was always bluster over substance.

He only survived (barely as in TNG he did have a civil war break out) due to the klingons being at peace. Some as real problems started to appear his incompetence showed.

I knew Andrew Robinson was playing Garak that way (until the powers that be told him to stop), but didn't know Siddig was going that route as well.

And let's be clear, having a crush on a person isn't "pathetic". It's normal human (and undoubtedly Cardassian as well) behavior.

If that the case sure.

But I think its important to note that men can have close intimate relationships without it being sexual. Part of toxic masculinity is the idea men cant form close bonds without being considered weak or "gay" ( not that being gay is a problem, just pointing out societies negative views which are wrong).

 

[Oddish]

But I think its important to note that men can have close intimate relationships without it being sexual.

Certainly, most of Classic Trek sought to beat down this fallacy. Kirk and Spock, Data and Geordi, Tom and Harry, Garak and Bashir, O'Brien and Bashir, Archer and Trip, and probably others I missed.

Part of toxic masculinity is the idea men cant form close bonds without being considered weak or "gay" ( not that being gay is a problem, just pointing out societies negative views which are wrong).

I remember a scene in "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure"... the titular besties hugged each other one time, then stepped back and (in unison) said... uh... the F-word that's still considered inappropriate here.

 

[SalyutBuran]

It took about 3-4 rewatches of DS9 before I liked Ezri. Terry Ferrell has spoken somewhere about the things Berman used to say to her and it's absolutely awful. She just wanted a reduced episode count to do Becker, I think and they were annoying about it because Berman had it out for her. Ezri the character is actually great, it's the fitting her into the show that is kind of annoying as @Oddish has said. Bashir/Ezri is disgusting. (In my head canon it was a fling to distract Bashir from being devastated by Garak and then they start up again shortly after). I (eventually) enjoyed seeing her get used to being joined and I liked her dysfunctional family and the different relationship she has with Ben. But that being said, way too many episodes focus on her, some of them are really stupid and she doesn't seem like she is in a good place to be a counsellor to anyone. And I really found it idiotic having her on the bridge in battle.

Garak cant be gay because if he were itd put him one step away from being a social predator. His habits of gas lighting lying manipulation etc would be very questionable if he were a straight guy doing it to a woman.

 

[Oddish]

Garak cant be gay because if he were itd put him one step away from being a social predator. His habits of gas lighting lying manipulation etc would be very questionable if he were a straight guy doing it to a woman.

Maybe he goes both ways.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Maybe he goes both ways.

That's how Robinson saw him, according to that book he wrote.

 

[kkt]

It would be a useful thing for a good agent to be able to play for either team according to mission requirements.

I don't see how gas lighting, lying, etc., are exclusive to any gender or orientation.

 

[Oddish]

I prefer electric lights anyway. Or candles if the power's out.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Garak cant be gay because if he were itd put him one step away from being a social predator. His habits of gas lighting lying manipulation etc would be very questionable if he were a straight guy doing it to a woman.

Enough of this please. You seem to be deliberating attempting to get a rise out of people with this attitude in your posts.

I have spoken in person to Andy Robinson about Garak. Before there was much fan speculation about Garak's sexuality, I asked him if Garak was keen on Bashir. People in the convention audience almost-booed my question but Andy told us that he was very pleased to know that the subtext that he and Alexander Siddig had put into those scenes permeated the scripted work. The writers, though, were less keen about making it more explicit, and eventually gave Garak a female love interest, but Andy reckoned that Garak would do whatever was required to achieve his longterm goals.

 

[Oddish]

If I remember right, Robinson played Garak as being seriously interested in Bashir. He was ultimately told to tone it down and, as mentioned, given a female love interest. It was still the 90's, and this was not a line the writers were prepared to cross.

 

[DonIago]

I'm assuming we're talking about Ziyal, in which case I'll just say that I liked that it was played more as a platonic interest, and that when there were romantic vibes it tended to come off (in my perception) pretty one-sided, with Ziyal pursuing Garak while he was more reserved about the situation. I'm frankly glad it didn't ultimately go anywhere.

I still give ISB props for acknowledging subsequently that the show could have handled such matters better than it did.

 

[SalyutBuran]

Enough of this please. You seem to be deliberating attempting to get a rise out of people with this attitude in your posts.

I have spoken in person to Andy Robinson about Garak. Before there was much fan speculation about Garak's sexuality, I asked him if Garak was keen on Bashir. People in the convention audience almost-booed my question but Andy told us that he was very pleased to know that the subtext that he and Alexander Siddig had put into those scenes permeated the scripted work. The writers, though, were less keen about making it more explicit, and eventually gave Garak a female love interest, but Andy reckoned that Garak would do whatever was required to achieve his longterm goals.

You're implying I'm trolling and yet you complain you were booed for saying against the grain.

Robinson isn't a writer, his opinions are profoundly not relevant in that context.

Dorn thinks he should be a captain and the writers thank he should never be allowed to be promoted because of the dax inncident.

You guys are taking a fan theory as fact when the writers never went in that direction. And they continued in a direction that would have him being sexual predator adjacent.

We seen him get joy out of manipulating people in a way where if it was sexual in any way it would be very creepy. He's very good at getting people to do things they,d never agree too otherwise.

Not to mention things like torturing odo, and so on.

You guys are so obsessed with a fan theory that you,re ignoring what the character was. He wasn't bad bad, but the writers continually walk a tipe rope, where the line would have to be well articulated.

Find a post where I have issues with Bashir being gay.

 

[The Realist]

But me no buts. Ezri was awesome.

 

[TheSeeker]

Garak cant be gay because if he were itd put him one step away from being a social predator. His habits of gas lighting lying manipulation etc would be very questionable if he were a straight guy doing it to a woman.

This post comes awfully close to calling all gay men sexual predators. You’ve been cautioned against making these kinds of posts by other moderators and you are now on very thin ice. If you persist in making these kind of comments you can expect warnings to follow.

 

[SalyutBuran]

This post comes awfully close to calling all gay men sexual predators. You’ve been cautioned against making these kinds of posts by other moderators and you are now on very thin ice. If you persist in making these kind of comments you can expect warnings to follow.

Look of that's your attitude just ban me now.

No this post is saying a person who willingly tortures people, makes violent threats, bombs his own shop, etc is a person who is toying with being a sexual predator.

There's no sexual element if he's not attracted to men.

Garak is a pretty awful person, he walks a type rope to maintain redeemable traits. His father is literally worst than Hitler, and his major goal is getting love from his father.

We don't need to look too far for the vibe of a Garak attracted to the people he's tormenting.

Dukat is similar to garak in many ways but one of the key differences is that garak can be a gentleman to people he's attracted to. In contrast dukat will show a special level of joy tormenting Kira.

 

[TheSeeker]

No this post is saying a person who willingly tortures people, makes violent threats, bombs his own shop, etc is a person who is toying with being a sexual predator.

Then why not say it this way to begin with? The way you wrote it makes it sound like being gay makes someone a predator.