Internal Culture War?

[fireproof78]

Their entire business model is based around milking the value of the star trek brand.

Also known as "Gene's Vision."

See also, "Lincoln Enterprises," IDIC, and other marketing opportunities.

It's just that there was no "TNG fans aren't real fans."

Again, count yourself lucky that you were not in my school.

It was small Trek fans but people were nasty to each other. Same with VOY, DS9 and the like. Never mind the conversations around ST 09.

That seems to be a big part of this "internal culture war": What does make something STAR TREK besides being set in that world? I think most of us have a "I don't know exactly, but I know it when I see it" thing going on. I never saw DIS as not being Star Trek-y, but I recognize that's just my viewpoint. I don't really get the whole "this Star Trek show just isn't/doesn't feel like STAR TREK." I didn't stick with VOY or ENT, but I don't consider them not-Trek.

That's always my question and there's never a satisfactory answer.

 

[SalyutBuran]

Also known as "Gene's Vision."

Gene milked at the time existing fans, by giving them more of what they wanted, so much more they could 25 additional seasons in one continuous run.

That's always my question and there's never a satisfactory answer.

Lets start with, if Orville actually feels like Star Trek, and nu stuff doesn't.

 

[fireproof78]

Gene milked at the time existing fans, by giving them more of what they wanted, so much more they could 25 additional seasons in one continuous run.

I did not ask for TNG, so no he didn't.

Also, that doesn't change anything. He milked the fans. Period. So, apparently it's fine if Gene does it but if someone else does it then it's bad?

Hooray for double standards. I grow tired of them in fandoms.

Lets start with, if Orville actually feels like Star Trek, and nu stuff doesn't.

Except, it didn't. It thought it did, and acted like it did and failed at every level with the characters, world and feel. It was janky, cartoony and unserious.

So, no it didn't.

 

[SalyutBuran]

I did not ask for TNG, so no he didn't.

Also, that doesn't change anything. He milked the fans. Period. So, apparently it's fine if Gene does it but if someone else does it then it's bad?

Hooray for double standards. I grow tired of them in fandoms.

If you bait someone with something and you deliver the thing it isn't a problem, that's not a double standard that's just human behavior.

My point was specifically that they did a perpetual bait and switch tactic. Of continually manipulating and gaslighting people, to get them to show up and then subvert their expectations 10 seconds after there's a small bit of bite.

Except, it didn't. It thought it did, and acted like it did and failed at every level with the characters, world and feel. It was janky, cartoony and unserious.
So, no it didn't.

I'd agree with you partially, it wasn't perfect by any means, but it absolutely did the job in a way that nu trek certainly did not.

Orville is far from perfect, it's some of the worst parts of Voyager, turned up a notch.

But it is more or less star trek.

I have a hard time calling nu trek science fiction, I have no choice so I have to. But you really have to stretch things to really say it fits in within the space opera /sg1/bsg/b5 framework.

 

[fireproof78]

If you bait someone with something and you deliver the thing it isn't a problem, that's not a double standard that's just human behavior.

TNG is not what I asked for in Trek.

But it is more or less star trek.

Hardly. It works to hard at being a self-referential, unserious, and thinks more highly of itself that it ought to.

It is SF, and even does a decent job but by this comparison Stargate is Star Trek, and better than some Star Trek of the same era.

I have a hard time calling nu trek science fiction, I have no choice so I have to. But you really have to stretch things to really say it fits in within the space opera /sg1/bsg/b5 framework.

I really don't.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Orville feels like a goofy TNG fanfic. It’s fun, but it’s not Star Trek.

 

[SalyutBuran]

TNG is not what I asked for in Trek.

And you're in a relative minority.

It'd be one thing if the TOS sub was full of people who agree with you, but it's totally the exception.

Hardly. It works to hard at being a self-referential, unserious, and thinks more highly of itself that it ought to.

All I'm gonna say is ton of people started celebrating when SNW got more like star trek by copying the orville.

It is SF, and even does a decent job but by this comparison Stargate is Star Trek, and better than some Star Trek of the same era.

Stargate is more Star Trek than nu trek, which is more a fault of nutrek than a compliment to stargate.

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EDIT: Actually it's shocking how much of this dialogue/tone could be used seamlessly on SNW.

This is what I think when I see nu trek. With no comment on whether or not it is good as smallville, it's more that than in the vicinity of space opera.

I really don't.

I think a good task is asking yourself what does character X want and why?

And I don't mean what is written into the script, I mean what do you see them act out week to week.

One of the common themes in nutrek is the abundance of characters who are seemingly not interested in being on the ship, in the way that would make sense in that genre. Probably because many of the writers aren't interested in the genre.

 

[fireproof78]

And you're in a relative minority.

It'd be one thing if the TOS sub was full of people who agree with you, but it's totally the exception.

And?

This seems entirely irrelevant.

All I'm gonna say is ton of people started celebrating when SNW got more like star trek by copying the orville.

Popularity does not equal Star Trek.

Stargate is more Star Trek than nu trek, which is more a fault of nutrek than a compliment to stargate.

Selectively ignoring what I actually said.

One of the common themes in nutrek is the abundance of characters who are seemingly not interested in being on the ship,

Good. That reflects much of real life that I experience on the day to day.

What do I expect in Trek? Human stories.

 

[SalyutBuran]

And?

This seems entirely irrelevant.

You're claiming that people got baited and switched with TNG.

If that were a powerful thing, you'd see a wider gap between TOS fans and everything else. You don't see wide gaps in Trek until the nutrek era.

Popularity does not equal Star Trek.

Popularity/buzz for a particular aspect of a show does.

When everyone goes wow that feels like star trek

Selectively ignoring what I actually said.

Or I was unsure of what you said which I think you mentioned.

Good. That reflects much of real life that I experience on the day to day.

This feels like a ding ding moment. One aspect of star trek that is rather specific to the rest of the adjacent shows, is that officers want to be there. That they can't imagine a world where there's anything more engaging than going through the gate, jumping in a viper, adding a pip to your collar etc.

What do I expect in Trek? Human stories.

So why bother with the star ship part if you're not interest in the ship part?

This falls into, why is this show even a thing.

And the motivations bit isn't a small subtle part of acting. It's the whole concept.

What do they want, why, and do I want it too?

Even Garak wants to be in a uniformed service, wearing a collar with some pips, he just wants it to be a cardassian fleet and not a federation one. You can go through a list of space shows, where people want to be in the show, because they're more interested in the thing itself than each other.

Back in the day they had this crazy idea, that you write about what people want to do, instead of nowadays where we explore how people relate to each other.

 

[fireproof78]

When everyone goes wow that feels like star trek

Which still hasn't been actually described.

Just stated vaguely as a feeling. Since this isn't quantifiable you'll forgive me for just respecting the actual owner of the IP's opinion on what is "Star Trek."

One aspect of star trek that is rather specific to the rest of the adjacent shows, is that officers want to be there. That they can't imagine a world where there's anything more engaging than going through the gate, jumping in a viper, adding a pip to your collar etc.

But that's not everyone's experience. Star Trek is about the human adventure (to borrow a phrase from GR) and people not enjoying their job, not wanting to be there is something a part of it and I welcome it.

So why bother with the star ship part if you're not interest in the ship part?

Because people do things they don't want to do. That's part of humanity.

What do they want, why, and do I want it too?

But, I don't want it. I want to learn about these characters, their struggles, their ups, downs, hopes, and dreams and fears. And nu Trek delivers that, and some fun stories and space adventure all in one. Reminds me of TOS in various ways.

 

[Jayson1]

I think Trek should take advantage of the fact that it has several shows in production at once all the time these days. It means it can experiment and do old fashioned Trek at the same time. This will become a even bigger opportunity soon as it realizes it doesn't need everything to be connected to the Prime Universe.

 

[fireproof78]

I think Trek should take advantage of the fact that it has several shows in production at once all the time these days. It means it can experiment and do old fashioned Trek at the same time. This will become a even bigger opportunity soon as it realizes it doesn't need everything to be connected to the Prime Universe.

*looks at Discovery*

*looks at Strange New Worlds*


Maybe the next round...

 

[SalyutBuran]

I think Trek should take advantage of the fact that it has several shows in production at once all the time these days. It means it can experiment and do old fashioned Trek at the same time. This will become a even bigger opportunity soon as it realizes it doesn't need everything to be connected to the Prime Universe.

And this is what truly upsets me. It isn't that there's one show that's off the mark, there's now 4!!.

And the frustrating part is that they do seemingly listen to the fans in short bursts, and then fail to get why they need to be told by the fans on how to make a show. It's by far the most damning part of nu trek.

Like it's not just the fans saying it isn't real trek. It's that the writers in one form or another admit to it. And have to do major course corrections to get back on point.

Picard started making sense in season 3, by finally doing what they were set out to do. STD had to bring in pike. SNW had a good overall concept, but you can see where the production is just off the rails. Let's give a 50 year old captain the haircut of a 20 year old hair dresser.

 

[Farscape One]

Even Garak wants to be in a uniformed service, wearing a collar with some pips, he just wants it to be a cardassian fleet and not a federation one.

Actually, Garak didn't want to be part of the Cardassian military. He wanted to serve Cardassia, but he did not think highly of the military or a number of its members, especially Dukat. He preferred being in the Obsidian Order, which was not uniformed or had ranks. (That we saw, anyway.)

And he was perfectly fine with killing members of the Cardassian military if it was in the best interests of Cardassia... the ending of "PROFIT AND LOSS" proves this conclusively. He said himself, "I love Cardassia."

 

[Lord Garth]

but you can see where the production is just off the rails. Let's give a 50 year old captain the haircut of a 20 year old hair dresser.

It's the future. Hairstyles will look different in 2260.

You might be a little young, but hairstyles tend to change a little and sometimes a lot, but at least a little, every decade. The surprise would be if things still looked exactly the same, not the other way around.

 

[Lord Garth]

If that were a powerful thing, you'd see a wider gap between TOS fans and everything else. You don't see wide gaps in Trek until the nutrek era.

I've been a fan for almost 35 years. Let me tell you what I've seen -- first-hand! -- over that span of time.

Early-1990s: TOS vs. TNG
Mid-1990s: TOS vs. TNG/DS9/VOY
Late-1990s: TOS/TNG vs. DS9/VOY <-- That's where TrekBBS came in! I know. I was one of the first members.
Early-2000s: TOS/TNG/DS9 vs. VOY/ENT
Mid-2000s: TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY vs. ENT
Late-2000s to Mid-2010s: TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT vs. Kelvin
Late-2010s: TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT vs. Kelvin/DSC
2020s: TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT vs. DSC/PIC/SNW

The Kelvin Films fell off the map when they stalled out and all the hatred for them transferred over to the Kurtzman Series. But, looking at this timeline, what "True Fans" like keeps expanding. They eventually accept all the new series. It just takes them a little while to come around. But, except for the absolute most stubborn people, they almost always do. The animated series seem to be spared this nonsense.

What's going to happen is this: Bashers will forget about Discovery once it's completely over. Then in 5, 10, 15 years, someone's going to re-discover it, but their hatred will have shifted to something else, and that something else will be different from whatever DSC did, so they'll give Discovery another chance. It won't be their favorite, but they'll say, "It wasn't as bad as I thought it was!" Same thing happened to Enterprise.

SNW will be accepted the most quickly. I feel like it mostly has already and the people we're dealing with who hate the series right now are the stragglers and the hold-outs. Some will honestly still not like the series no matter how much time passes, but those are the people for who the show is honestly not to their tastes, not someone who just automatically hates it because it's new. Same for Discovery. Some people for who the show is honestly -- honestly -- not to their tastes won't ever like it. But the ones who hate it just because it's new will come around because it won't be new anymore.

Picard -- as morbid as this sounds to say -- will be more accepted after Patrick Stewart has died. They'll look back at Picard in a different light, as the last time they had a chance to see the character. People will be more apt to look at anything he was in through a positive light because of this. It'll be very unfortunate, but that's honestly the way I see it going.

Don't believe me about any of this? Let me quote a little gem from another forum:

Kelvinverse was alway acceptable bcs it is other universe/reality/dimension/timeline

"The Kelvinverse was always acceptable"? *cough*bullshit*cough* So, yeah. In 10 years we'll hear, "Disco was always acceptable!"

In a Nutshell: 1966-2005 Only Fans have no idea how much they sound like TOS Only Fans from 30 years ago. It's uncanny.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Love stories are inserted to these stories to catch a casual majority....

Aside for the rest of your generalised suppositions, that is not why writers put romance into their stories.

It's just that there was no "TNG fans aren't real fans." See what I mean?

No. I entered fandom in 1979, as a result of "Star Trek - The Motion Picture", and I spent much of 1980 having my excitement quashed by supposedly-avid TOS fans, who had seen the episodes on TV in 1966, and thus were certain that I would "never be a true fan" and would never last in fandom, because I simply didn't understand Trek if I thought that TMP was a good movie.

Strangely enough, I was president of the local club by December 1983 - and I'm still here. Many of them dropped by the wayside long ago.

 

[Ovation]

Problem with these arguments is that straight people are the majority. Love stories are inserted to these stories to catch a casual majority. You can't captivate a casual majority audience with a minority sexual orientation.

I'm deep in the category of zero love story nonsense, as it's always been one of the biggest flaws in trek. Like the only one well done relationship is Dax and Worf, and you could easily argue that dax is an obvious stand in for "use to be a man, fights like a man, but is a woman", so the hetero normative angle doesn't jive with me.

It's real odd to me when people think the gay thing is shocking to others, while the people claiming to be most progressive seem to be the ones that dwell on it most. My gay friends never wanted representation, they want hot guys on screen, not unattractive gay characters just attractive men, and for them there's no appealing guys in anything new aside from pike. Ironically because agenda folk are trying to normalize their unattractive personalities using some "moral cause". Characters can't be heroic and humble, it's either they're not heroic at all, or if they are they're heroic in a way that a narcissist would fantasize about. No flaws never wrong, and they're victims of people trying to oppress them for being so great.

Like seriously how much of modern politics on both sides is just narcissistic individuals trying to hijack reasonable viewpoints. Is it a political cause, or is it just a narcissistic trying to justify their behaviors. I mean it's shocking how true this is when you start looking at individuals. So many vocal people who are obvious narcissists on both sides, the difference between a political person and a narcissists is so hard to parse out nowadays. You can always make yourself the most important person in the room by claiming to be the biggest advocate, while you can never be wrong because, even if you are wrong it's for a cause. Anyone who critisizes you is doing so only because they're your political enemy even if they factually agree with you. Being power hungry is simply you trying to right the wrongs of the past. There's also a massive thing where you're the most important group in the room because you're a victim of a moral injustice, even if your group is dominant in one way or another.

Point is these things are not interesting, they're the dull crap you turn to star trek to get away from. People pushing politics are people trying to avoid the fact they have personal flaws that they refuse to take ownership for. People don't engage in personal struggles or demons anymore, they try to fix the world instead of themselves.

The idea that there's something for everyone to enjoy, is just like wow.

I like Star Trek: The Original Series// Star Trek: The Next Generation/ Star Trek: Deep Space 9/Star Trek: Enterprise /The Expanse/For All Mankind/Raised by Wolves/Dune/Blade Runner/Alien/Orville/OT Star Wars/ Star Wars: Endor/ Space Above and Beyond/Babylon 5/ Starship Troopers/ Stargate SG-1/ Stargate Universe / Classic Battlestar Galactica/ Farscape/ Reimagined Battlestar Galactica / Caprica

And nutrek is basically unwatchable. It's not even an Independence Day like guilty pleasure. And I'm not like some anomaly, there's a massive number of people in my boat. We'll watch anything space related if it delivers and this show doesn't for people like me.

Nutrek for me and a massive number of people is basically a mix of an afternoon soap opera, and a high school drama. I mean that quite literally, I see these shows at their absolute bests being a lower tier version of "The 100", even the 3rd season picard which I like, is basically a soap opera version of TNG.

Star Trek has massive pull with me, and many in my peer group. We'll watch anything and have tried to watch nu trek and it's always the same thing.

Nu Trek for me isn't just star trek, it's something that doesn't even fit under the umbrella of all the shows I listed above. And yet people still come back with you don't like it because it's diverse, it's new whatever. If I like pretty much anything, hard to make that argument.






To you, to my gay friends they're basically gay wesley crushers.

Nutrek fans remind me of gay conversation therapists ironically. So convinced that some conversion is just around the corner, and just fundamentally oblivious to how uninterested some people are. Like it's not a "a small group of people aren't interested" it's more "this entire nutrek entity clashes with several or most aspects of my identity and being". When I see the STD crew, I see the cast of clerks 4, and not the fun people either.

You were born with a certain personality and emotional orientation, great but stop trying to pretend more trek fans are interested in seeing people cry than they actually are.

I don't like crying, emotions and soap opera features in a story. It just makes me uncomfortable and emotionally tired. I get some are indocxtrinated to believe it's because people like me are macho and aren't open to our feelings, and it's just not based on science.




It doesn't feel forced to you, to me the hair of pike is telling. It feels like "I'm really focused on big important things, and by the way I spend 30 minutes a day on my hair". It's like someone going to a coffee shop, buying one $1.25 cookie ever 2 hours, so they can't get kicked out of the shop. They aren't interested in the product they just want to occupy the room.

That's pretty much spot on, they didn't hate it because it was different they hated it because it sucked. Just the same TNG never gained many of the elements that made TOS great.


Enterprise? I take it for granted that Enterprise is now the other Star Trek show, the one you watch after you've seen everything else and pleaseantly surprised.

DS9 is the better made of the above, but it obviously has limited appeal.










I'd argue the hatred is intense because people have never been so desperate to like something, and see all the same crap that is ruining every other franchise. The established audience will pay for these shows just to hate watch them and the studios like it.

It's the hilarious part with people hating on the haters. These people are so convinced the hatred is motivated by something other than it is. The studio is trying to milk the established fan bases, and they don't care if they make us bitter as hell in the process. The bait and switch marketing for virtually every sci fi show in our era is telling. "this show is different, we've hired a technical expert this time we'll actually bait you with something you want" Mandalorian being such a prime example of this. Like literally half way through season 2 we some "The Many Mandalorians" on a show called "The Mandalorian". Like you can just see the vultures on every IP.

For me the moment I lost all failth in sci fi was season 4 of the expanse. Such a great show, and the corporate folks saw a vehicle/ "Oppressor-Victim complex, clearly that is what this is all about, why bother with all the aspects of the show that are not that!!"


The big one that gets overlooked is the B5-DS9 animosity. Mainly because it still has relevance.

Like is the only reason DS9 any good, is because they had money and borrowed heavily off B5?

Personally I can't decide. DS9 is so much better than B5 in a lot of ways, but you can't argue it didn't rely on B5 to make it happen.

You'd have a point if cbs didn't keep releasing new series trying to convince us, "this time it's different".

You're acting as if CBS announced that they were doing their equivalent reimagined BSG, where hey there's some great ideas but we want to do our thing.

Their entire business model is based around milking the value of the star trek brand.

Ironically they finally did what they were suppose to do with season 3 picard, only took a dozen seasons to get that one right.



And what's that? We're sci fi junkies. You'd have a point if Star Trek was the stand alone legacy ip that was hijacked and ruined.

But it's not, it's a concerted effort on every legacy brand. Same tricks being used again and again. And now we're suppose to act like it's some shocking thing that streaming services are suffering.

If you bait someone with something and you deliver the thing it isn't a problem, that's not a double standard that's just human behavior.

My point was specifically that they did a perpetual bait and switch tactic. Of continually manipulating and gaslighting people, to get them to show up and then subvert their expectations 10 seconds after there's a small bit of bite.



I'd agree with you partially, it wasn't perfect by any means, but it absolutely did the job in a way that nu trek certainly did not.

Orville is far from perfect, it's some of the worst parts of Voyager, turned up a notch.

But it is more or less star trek.

I have a hard time calling nu trek science fiction, I have no choice so I have to. But you really have to stretch things to really say it fits in within the space opera /sg1/bsg/b5 framework.

And you're in a relative minority.

It'd be one thing if the TOS sub was full of people who agree with you, but it's totally the exception.





All I'm gonna say is ton of people started celebrating when SNW got more like star trek by copying the orville.



Stargate is more Star Trek than nu trek, which is more a fault of nutrek than a compliment to stargate.

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EDIT: Actually it's shocking how much of this dialogue/tone could be used seamlessly on SNW.

This is what I think when I see nu trek. With no comment on whether or not it is good as smallville, it's more that than in the vicinity of space opera.



I think a good task is asking yourself what does character X want and why?

And I don't mean what is written into the script, I mean what do you see them act out week to week.

One of the common themes in nutrek is the abundance of characters who are seemingly not interested in being on the ship, in the way that would make sense in that genre. Probably because many of the writers aren't interested in the genre.

You're claiming that people got baited and switched with TNG.

If that were a powerful thing, you'd see a wider gap between TOS fans and everything else. You don't see wide gaps in Trek until the nutrek era.




Popularity/buzz for a particular aspect of a show does.

When everyone goes wow that feels like star trek



Or I was unsure of what you said which I think you mentioned.



This feels like a ding ding moment. One aspect of star trek that is rather specific to the rest of the adjacent shows, is that officers want to be there. That they can't imagine a world where there's anything more engaging than going through the gate, jumping in a viper, adding a pip to your collar etc.





So why bother with the star ship part if you're not interest in the ship part?

This falls into, why is this show even a thing.

And the motivations bit isn't a small subtle part of acting. It's the whole concept.

What do they want, why, and do I want it too?

Even Garak wants to be in a uniformed service, wearing a collar with some pips, he just wants it to be a cardassian fleet and not a federation one. You can go through a list of space shows, where people want to be in the show, because they're more interested in the thing itself than each other.

Back in the day they had this crazy idea, that you write about what people want to do, instead of nowadays where we explore how people relate to each other.

And this is what truly upsets me. It isn't that there's one show that's off the mark, there's now 4!!.

And the frustrating part is that they do seemingly listen to the fans in short bursts, and then fail to get why they need to be told by the fans on how to make a show. It's by far the most damning part of nu trek.

Like it's not just the fans saying it isn't real trek. It's that the writers in one form or another admit to it. And have to do major course corrections to get back on point.

Picard started making sense in season 3, by finally doing what they were set out to do. STD had to bring in pike. SNW had a good overall concept, but you can see where the production is just off the rails. Let's give a 50 year old captain the haircut of a 20 year old hair dresser.

So. Much. Yawning. Lockjaw imminent.

 

[fireproof78]

He said himself, "I love Cardassia."

He also said, "I love democracy. I love the republic."

 

[Awesome Possum]

Some “fans” always try to gatekeep what is and isn’t Star Trek. It’s best to just ignore them and enjoy the shows however you want.