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Rewatching TOS After SNW

Perhaps Kirk tries out Uhura's advice:

LINCOLN: What a charming negress. Oh, forgive me, my dear. I know in my time some used that term as a description of property.
UHURA: But why should I object to that term, sir? You see, in our century we've learned not to fear words.
KIRK: May I present our communications officer, Lieutenant Uhura.
LINCOLN: The foolishness of my century had me apologising where no offense was given.

Possible, but it seems society hasn't gotten over it in SNW (S2E2)...
You have a very unique last name. Do you have any relation to Khan Noonien Singh?
Yes.


You might imagine you saw it. But two centuries is maybe 7-8 generations, far enough back that only a tiny fraction of La'an's genes would be from Khan, if any: https://gcbias.org/2013/11/04/how-much-of-your-genome-do-you-inherit-from-a-particular-ancestor/ So there's little chance of any significant resemblance.

True, but you know they factored in some sort of small resemblance when choosing Christina Chong. Yes, Ricardo Montalban wasn't South+East asian as the name noonien-singh would suggest.

As well if it was moot point, they wouldn't have purposely brought up her lineage in S2E2 (above), and again in S2E3:
My real name is La'An Noonien-Singh. My ancestor is Khan Noonien Singh. And his legacy is genocide, torture... and me.

They will probably explore this further at some point. I wouldn't be surprised that they introduce new genetic concepts around this, meaning she still has some aspects of Khan within her.

If she was just meant to be "hey, a descendent of Khan, cool" and left it at that, then there would be no point in having a descendent of Khan in the show in the first place.

Anyhow, to keep this on topic....
Just feel differently in TOS when Kirk meets Khan Sr.
 
Any character with unique characteristics will be sought by those wishing to exploit said characteristics. Any character with a defining species or family background will have to face those who resent it. It's an unwritten Trek plot rule.
 
At least she's not carrying around Borg Genes waiting to infect all of Starfleet via transporter. :rolleyes:
 
True, but you know they factored in some sort of small resemblance when choosing Christina Chong. Yes, Ricardo Montalban wasn't South+East asian as the name noonien-singh would suggest.

What are you talking about? Khan was supposed to be South Asian. Christina Chong is Anglo-Chinese. That's a totally different ethnic group and cultural heritage. Yeah, they're both "Asian," but it's a big continent.


If she was just meant to be "hey, a descendent of Khan, cool" and left it at that, then there would be no point in having a descendent of Khan in the show in the first place.

I think that was Jedi Marso's point: if it was supposed to be significant, why have they barely done anything with it?
 
The Noonien-Singh Institute was probably not named after Khan himself, if it's where he lives. Instead, it might be the last names of one or two people who founded it. If it's two people, then perhaps his mother and father; one from India and the other from China.

In which case, any children produced in the program could also have been given the surname due to their origins in the program, not just those whose biological mother and father were members of a family by that name.

That's assuming they have any mother and father, and that these kids are not created from scratch without biological DNA donor parents.

if it was supposed to be significant, why have they barely done anything with it?

So far, a stigmatized childhood and any remaining angst therefrom, ability to sympathize with others whose modified DNA (in her case, several generations removed) is the subject of controversy, and the chance (not taken) to delete her famous forebear.

Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't change their family name a long time ago.
 
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What are you talking about? Khan was supposed to be South Asian. Christina Chong is Anglo-Chinese. That's a totally different ethnic group and cultural heritage. Yeah, they're both "Asian," but it's a big continent.

I was about to write this, then found someone else who said something similar...
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/the-origins-of-khans-and-soongs-names.272620/
Christopher:
"Khan's name is an ethnic hodgepodge. Khan is generally a Muslim surname, derived from a Mongolian royal title. Noonien is Chinese, and Singh is Sikh, the only part of his name that actually fits the character's nominal origin."

To add to the above....Khan is meant to be related to Genghis Khan, who's future generations converted to Islam and ruled India. Also it makes sense since Genghis Khan was know for his brutality, as was Khan Noonien-Singh.

So no...
Christina Chong was not meant to be a totally different ethnic group, but a subset of the Khan Noonien-Singh ethnic mix, and purposely so.

I think that was Jedi Marso's point: if it was supposed to be significant, why have they barely done anything with it?

It's possible they never get around to it in the character development. Right now they are flushing out her experiences with the Gorn.
 
The Noonien-Singh Institute was probably not named after Khan himself, if it's where he lives. Instead, it might be the last names of one or two people who founded it. If it's two people, then perhaps his mother and father; one from India and the other from China.

I used to think that Noonien was a Chinese name -- since Roddenberry allegedly named Khan and Noonien Soong after a Chinese person he was trying to get the attention of -- but I was later told that it is indeed a name used among Sikhs. Although I've never been able to find any references to the name outside of Trek, so I'm not sure what it actually is.


In which case, any children produced in the program could also have been given the surname due to their origins in the program, not just those whose biological mother and father were members of a family by that name.

Well, yes, I think that was the obvious implication in "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow," that Khan was named for the institute.



To add to the above....Khan is meant to be related to Genghis Khan

Where the hell did you get that idea? That has never been suggested in any canonical work. It can only be a fan theory, and it's a stupid one, because Genghis Khan's actual name was Temujin. Genghis is an honorific, and "Khan" is the title of any and every Mongol chieftain.

Also, Khan is an extremely common surname in Asia and the Muslim world, because of its history as a title, so assuming that someone named Khan was meant to be related to any one specific khan is like assuming that Alan King was named after King Arthur.


Also it makes sense since Genghis Khan was know for his brutality, as was Khan Noonien-Singh.

Both these statements are wrong. Genghis is painted by Western history as nothing more than a violent brute, but while he was indeed brutal to his enemies, so was Alexander the Great to an equal extent, and both Genghis and Alexander were equally tolerant and benevolent to those who submitted to their rule. It's only due to racial bias that Western history teaches Alexander as a hero and Genghis as a monster. Asian history paints Genghis as a revered cultural founder in much the same way Western history paints Alexander.

And "Space Seed" explicitly stated that Khan was not known for his brutality. "He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous. "There were no massacres under his rule." "No wars until he was attacked."


Christina Chong was not meant to be a totally different ethnic group, but a subset of the Khan Noonien-Singh ethnic mix, and purposely so.

You do me a disservice by misusing my quote to support a premise I do not agree with. I was absolutely not saying that any producers of Star Trek actually intended Khan to be ethnically mixed. The passage you quote was in reference to the casting of Benedict Cumberbatch as Khan; my point was that, hypothetically, there was no reason that Khan could not be a different ethnic group from the South Asian one presumed by "Space Seed." I was not saying he actually was, just that he conceivably could be.

However, to play the young Khan in "Tomorrow...," the producers of Strange New Worlds cast Desmond Sivan, a Latino actor who, depending on the source, is partly South Asian or at least appears South Asian. So they were splitting the difference between Montalban's real ethnicity and Khan's intended ethnicity. There is no suggestion whatsoever that they intended anything East Asian in the mix.

And there's no reason why they should. After all, Khan ruled a quarter of the world from India to the Pacific. He probably had concubines from all over the region he ruled, so he probably has descendants of multiple Asian and Pacific ethnicities. After 7-8 generations, as I said, his own genes would be diluted to the point of near-indetectability, so he could be fully Desi yet still have descendants who showed no trace of South Asian ancestry. Thus, there's no reason why Khan would need to have any East Asian genetics in order to have East Asian descendants.


Right now they are flushing out her experiences with the Gorn.

It's "fleshing out." It means building up, expanding. "Flushing out" implies the opposite.
 
I used to think that Noonien was a Chinese name -- since Roddenberry allegedly named Khan and Noonien Soong after a Chinese person he was trying to get the attention of -- but I was later told that it is indeed a name used among Sikhs. Although I've never been able to find any references to the name outside of Trek, so I'm not sure what it actually is.
I’ve run across some articles suggesting that “Noonian” might be Nguyễn or Yuen.
 
You would think that any name used in Asia would be common enough that one could easily locate a plethora of results unrelated to the Trek character, especially after eliminating searches containing "Khan," "Kahn," "Singh", "Soong," etc.

"Noonien" returns 568,000 hits on Google. Eliminating those other terms reduces that to 12,000.*
And returned results on "meaning" or "origin" are generally either usernames or "user-submitted information" on webpages devoted to the meanings and origins of names - really, not worth a spit.

I mean, there's not a single use of the word on WIkipedia that's not a reference in a Trek-oriented article. Nothing at all, at Britannica.

One geneology site claims that "approximately three people bear this surname." How likely is that?

Try this experiment: randomly make up a two-syllable word and type it into Google. You'll almost certainly get thousands of results, often with a suggestion for a variant spelling. Because it's virtually impossible to transcript two random syllables without it turning out to be a word somewhere.

So this really looks like a misspelling, likely based on mishearing as Nerys Myk suggested. "Nguyen" is not real close, but it might be a start.

*Substituting the spelling "Noonian" returns less than 8,000 results.
 
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I used to think that Noonien was a Chinese name -- since Roddenberry allegedly named Khan and Noonien Soong after a Chinese person he was trying to get the attention of -- but I was later told that it is indeed a name used among Sikhs. Although I've never been able to find any references to the name outside of Trek, so I'm not sure what it actually is.

I’ve run across some articles suggesting that “Noonian” might be Nguyễn or Yuen.

This above, is what I have always believed. Was it actually spelled Noonian in the original script? If so, maybe a writer adjusted the spelling for pronunciation. Nguyen is tough to pronounce unless you know the name.

You do me a disservice by misusing my quote to support a premise I do not agree with. I was absolutely not saying that any producers of Star Trek actually intended Khan to be ethnically mixed. The passage you quote was in reference to the casting of Benedict Cumberbatch as Khan; my point was that, hypothetically, there was no reason that Khan could not be a different ethnic group from the South Asian one presumed by "Space Seed." I was not saying he actually was, just that he conceivably could be.

Fair enough, and I apologize for that.

Though I would use a similar breakdown about his name to claim that Khan was meant to be ethnically mixed.

However, to play the young Khan in "Tomorrow...," the producers of Strange New Worlds cast Desmond Sivan, a Latino actor who, depending on the source, is partly South Asian or at least appears South Asian. So they were splitting the difference between Montalban's real ethnicity and Khan's intended ethnicity.

Possible, but considering they threw all of that out of the water with Cumberbatch, can't say for sure.

There is no suggestion whatsoever that they intended anything East Asian in the mix.
Except for the name Noonian...
Was it intended to be South Asian or East Asian?

a) If South Asian, then my argument falls apart, and it ends there.
b) If Noonian was meant to be East Asian, then what I state about mixed race would hold true.
 
This above, is what I have always believed. Was it actually spelled Noonian in the original script? If so, maybe a writer adjusted the spelling for pronunciation. Nguyen is tough to pronounce unless you know the name.

I'm not sure how you'd get "Noonian" from a name pronounced more like "Ng-ween." It tends to be approximated by English speakers as "Win," basically.



Possible, but considering they threw all of that out of the water with Cumberbatch, can't say for sure.

Different "they." The way a different set of filmmakers cast Khan in a movie a decade earlier has no bearing on the intentions of Strange New Worlds' creators, which is the topic here. What I'm saying is that the creators of SNW's choice to cast Desmond Sivan as Khan demonstrates that they had no intention of him being part-Chinese.


Though I would use a similar breakdown about his name to claim that Khan was meant to be ethnically mixed.
...
Except for the name Noonian...
Was it intended to be South Asian or East Asian?

a) If South Asian, then my argument falls apart, and it ends there.
b) If Noonian was meant to be East Asian, then what I state about mixed race would hold true.

You can't read too much into it. You have to keep in mind that 1960s American TV writers were generally quite ignorant about Asian cultures and tended to lump everything from the Middle East to the Far East together into an undifferentiated Orientalist blob. It doesn't mean they intended characters to be multiethnic, it just meant they were too ignorant to know or care about the difference between one type of "Oriental" and another.
 
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I'm not sure how you'd get "Noonian" from a name pronounced more like "Ng-ween." It tends to be approximated by English speakers as "Win," basically.

I think we have to start from the assumption that the original name was being badly mispronounced. Nguyen, N-Gu-y-en, Nuh-Goo-ee-en, Noonian. Hypothetically, I could see someone getting tired of correcting all the ignorant Americans about the pronunciation and just going with it.
 
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