This is called character development. Something good tv shows are known for.....
PS.... Development does not mean progress. It means development, either way.... They develop over time.
Spoilers What does SNW get right that DSC and PIC got wrong??
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This is called character development. Something good tv shows are known for.....
PS.... Development does not mean progress. It means development, either way.... They develop over time.
For me, one of the major things that DSC has gotten wrong is an over-emphasis on Burnham, mostly because I think the supporting cast are great and I'd like to see them get more to do. S2 started down that road but unfortunately then pulled back from it. Adira got some nice focus. The stuff with Airiam was well-done, but I felt it was a little undermined by the fact that to that point she'd never been a stand-out character, so it was suspicious when the show suddenly focused on her to that degree, almost as though she was the guest star for those episodes. I'm reminded of how the whodunit element of TUC was undercut by the fact that we'd really only met one new major character and they almost certainly weren't going to turn one of Our Heroes into a villain.
This is called character development. Something good tv shows are known for.....
PS.... Development does not mean progress. It means development, either way.... They develop over time.
True, characters can actually regress over time. Like Sayid from LOST... he did things as an Iraqi soldier he hated, and was trying to be redemptive. But then after making progress there, the woman he loved was killed... he then just completely shut down and essentially became an assassin.
Or Lyta from BABYLON 5. She got screwed over a lot, and finally ended up beginning a telepath terrorist campaign, for lack of a better phrase. (I still wish we got to see some of the Telepath War.)
Same here.
I don't really think Lyta regressed; she just didn't necessarily become the person some of us were hoping she would become. I don't really know how fans generally felt about her choices in later seasons. It did kind of point out that maybe Our Heroes could have done more for her and that maybe even they had some unconscious (or not-so-unconscious) bias against telepaths.
As has been pointed out repeatedly over in the SNW board when people bring up some of the changes to Chapel, there wasn't really much of a character to Chapel in TOS. The same goes for Pike. Other than the aborted pilot, the dude was a guy in a box with a blinking light.
If you like those characters on SNW, it's NOT because of nostalgia. It's because of what Anson Mount and Jess Bush have brought to those characters.
And I'd argue that SNW's Spock is so far away from the TOS Spock as to almost be a different character, and is again something that could have been totally wrong and awful without what Ethan Peck brings to the performance.
Never said you need an episode centered around a character to care about them. You don't. What I said was that I "also" wished Discovery had developed its side characters in a similar way as the other Trek series because I think it speaks to the depth of characterization overall for all of the characters in that series.
Both Rom (Max Grodénchik) and Leeta (Chase Masterson) on Deep Space Nine were not main characters or significant recurring characters, appeared occasionally (and in fewer total episodes than either Detmer or Owo), and yet the depth of the characterization for them, where you gave a shit about what happened to them and knew who they were and what they were about is light-years different than what we've seen from the writing team at Discovery for some of their characters.
With Lyta, I agree regression is the wrong word. Her reaction is probably the more realistic one than everyone else... the others were a more idealistic view. But Franklin was right after he went through a list of things she went through... "She's pissed." And rightfully so.
I definitely think a bias against telepaths was a factor, and I honestly can't blame them for that.
But... Lyta did cause Z'Ha'Dum to blow up. (At least, it certainly is quite the coincidence it happened right after she scanned it.) I think Sheridan held that against her, and I can't blame him for that. Though I also can't really blame her for blowing that planet up, either... too many bad weapons and technology could be used by others to start other wars. It was one of those scenarios where I agreed with both sides.
I didn't say that. What I said was a little bit different. You cared about Chapel, for instance, at least to some small degree, before SNW existed. You prefer the SNW version of Chapel, and so do I, but how many people here can tell me -- with a straight face -- "I didn't give a shit about Chapel before 2022! Didn't care about her at all! At all"? If you're going to say it, say it like you mean it. Same for Uhura.
The point isn't "You only like them because of nostalgia!" The point I'm trying to make is, "They already had a head start to begin with, so you were more apt to like them." Familiarity with the characters got the ball rolling, but then it went from there.
Anyway, what's interesting about Chapel, aside from Barbara Bush's performance, is seeing a character properly developed who wasn't really before. Upthread, I said the same thing about Anson Mount's Pike.
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Yes, you've all beaten us to death with constantly bringing up Detmer and Owo over and over and over again. And over and over and over and over and over again! Read you loud and clear.
But what about Culber, Stamets, Book, Kovich, Vance, Adira, Saru, Rillak, Tilly, Grey, and Cornwell? How about L'Rell and Ash? Captain Georgiou? Zora? "Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera..." to quote Yul Brynner.
And Hell, Detmer had a storyline of her own for the first half of the third season. And, at one point, she said she couldn't stand having Stamets steal her glory whenever they used the Spore Drive because she has amazing piloting skills.
Controversial Opinion but I think Detmer is a more interesting character than Ortegas who, from what I've seen, just delivers wisecracks and tries to get Uhura to loosen up. Detmer has an ego, insecurities about her real or perceived flaws, and she's disfigured from The War, but still always keeps a smile, and doesn't lose her resolve.
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Pike really carries SNW for me. I like M'Benga too and La'an.
I don't think it's ever made clear whether Lyta did that consciously or not? IIRC Sheridan calls her out on it later in the episode and she answers in a way that heavily implies she did it on purpose but leaves wiggle room. Though really, even things Lyta thinks she's doing consciously could be things the Vorlons programmed her to do...I don't really know how much of what she does is stuff that we're supposed to construe as being entirely of her own free will...probably almost all of it, but perhaps not?
That said, I can get Sheridan being pissed about it in the moment, though I also would have hoped Sheridan would have realized upon reflection that what Lyta did was probably for the best...and IIRC he seemed more annoyed that she did it without his authorization than that she did it at all, which is kind of beneath him. But then, Babylon 5 was always keen on stressing that our characters are flawed people.
They also ditched the potential conflict between him and Burnham at the end of the third season.
Apparently, everybody has to share their feelings in the middle of crises in order to resolve their issues. Well, everybody except Burnham since she's the main character.
Better than being told to suck it up and deal with it and bury those feelings deep down.
Oh, wait, I forgot; this is Star Trek. Bury those feelings!
1) Airiam didn't impress me much because I don't think we knew about her accident until that episode. The whole thing felt rushed.
2) I don't care about Pelia. She's a boring character that I can barely understand and reminds me of better supporting characters elsewhere. Hemmer was unique, and they ditched him because Uhura had to learn some stuff.
Sidenote: it's interesting the NuTrek shows I have the least complaints about are both animated.
Hemmer's actor was only contracted for one season. So they did the dramatic thing.
I know, in a drama doing dramatic things is odd...
I know, in a drama doing dramatic things is odd...
Not bury them, just channel them into more appropriate places. In real life, firefighters don't stop to talk about their private lives while fighting fires. Dentists might, but they've got the time.
Then, I dunno, they should have contracted him for longer.
But what else can I expect from a show where most of the characters can't have anything really bad happen to them? I think this is what bothers me most about prequels that involve established characters.
I'd go for some of Pike's cooking.Most things?
A big thing? They made the Enterprise a place you wanted to BE.
It'll be interesting to see if they show a scaled back version of the Enterprise at the end of the series when Kirk takes over. If they show that, of course.
I guess this is the difference for me right now. People say bury your feelings and then say "save them for a more appropriate time" but never state when that is. Just don't do it here is the message.
But, in TOS, and other shows, people stop and do the heart to heart in a crisis. Kirk is reflective, and muses with McCoy or shake a crewmember to get over their issues in the moment. Perhaps we should have more of that?
Another difference for me-I never expect main characters to be in any danger.
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