Well *mine* did! I just would have preferred the toon crossover have been Prodigy within Picard/Legacy, but I guess that Lower Decks in SNW would work (not watched it yet).Who's list had Cartoon crossover and musical on them? Mine sure didn't.
Spoilers What does SNW get right that DSC and PIC got wrong??
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I'm not sure about "right" and "wrong", since that's subjective.
But if it comes to why I like it and will continue to watch it once I have time again, while I got bored of DISC and absolutely detest PIC....
It's just FUN. The storylines and character interactions are fun. The show is interesting to look at. The characters are likeable. (as far as I've seen) It doesn't try to "morally ambiguous" arc-heavy Prestige TV.
It's fun and adventure that's written in a way I can enjoy and keep interested in, like LD, and that's all I really want.
But if it comes to why I like it and will continue to watch it once I have time again, while I got bored of DISC and absolutely detest PIC....
It's just FUN. The storylines and character interactions are fun. The show is interesting to look at. The characters are likeable. (as far as I've seen) It doesn't try to "morally ambiguous" arc-heavy Prestige TV.
It's fun and adventure that's written in a way I can enjoy and keep interested in, like LD, and that's all I really want.
They were the episodes we didn't know we needed.
I've mentioned in another thread that there's no right or wrong way to do STAR TREK. It's a matter of what does or doesn't work for you. I still stand by that assertion.
My main reason for not really loving either DISCO or PICARD is due to the overall story of the season not sticking the landing. The problem with severely arc heavy seasons is that if it doesn't feel like a satisfying ending, it makes the entire season worse because you can't just miss an episode here and there. They're too tightly connected. They blur too close together. The only seasons that mostly stuck the landing was DISCO season 4 and PICARD season 3. Someone mentioned the frequent changing of head writers of both shows were a factor, and I'd agree with that. I've actually used that as a possible reason why VOYAGER wrote Janeway so inconsistently... head writer changed hands 4 times in 7 years. For comparison, DS9 changed it once, and the writing there was much more consistent. There's something to be said for stability at the top.
Do these shows have the spirit of the franchise? Absolutely, yes. They deserve their seat at the ever expanding table of STAR TREK shows. Hell, SNW wouldn't exist without DISCO season 2. (On a personal note, I find it highly ironic that the second worst season in the franchise basically gave birth to the best live series of the streaming era.)
SNW... my favorite show of the streaming era, with LOWER DECKS and PRODIGY right behind. SNW strikes a great balance between standalone and arcs... it does character arcs while still being standalone enough to weave in and out of an episode if you don't like it. DS9's dna is very obviously baked into SNW, not only for this reason but because it balances between dark and light episodes. DISCO and PICARD could never do that simply because of the nature of the serialization. For the most part, they missed that sense of FUN that has been part of the franchise since TOS. SNW knows how to have fun, and is confident enough in itself to take all sorts of risks.
If the franchise did another series that was as arc driven as DISCO and PICARD were, would it work? That depends on a lot of things, but I think it comes down to this. I think the fatal flaw was the lack of fun. If light and dark can be brought into a serialized show, then I think it would work.
For now, we have SNW to give us that fun. And it's been great fun so far. Hope it gets to 100 episodes!
My main reason for not really loving either DISCO or PICARD is due to the overall story of the season not sticking the landing. The problem with severely arc heavy seasons is that if it doesn't feel like a satisfying ending, it makes the entire season worse because you can't just miss an episode here and there. They're too tightly connected. They blur too close together. The only seasons that mostly stuck the landing was DISCO season 4 and PICARD season 3. Someone mentioned the frequent changing of head writers of both shows were a factor, and I'd agree with that. I've actually used that as a possible reason why VOYAGER wrote Janeway so inconsistently... head writer changed hands 4 times in 7 years. For comparison, DS9 changed it once, and the writing there was much more consistent. There's something to be said for stability at the top.
Do these shows have the spirit of the franchise? Absolutely, yes. They deserve their seat at the ever expanding table of STAR TREK shows. Hell, SNW wouldn't exist without DISCO season 2. (On a personal note, I find it highly ironic that the second worst season in the franchise basically gave birth to the best live series of the streaming era.)
SNW... my favorite show of the streaming era, with LOWER DECKS and PRODIGY right behind. SNW strikes a great balance between standalone and arcs... it does character arcs while still being standalone enough to weave in and out of an episode if you don't like it. DS9's dna is very obviously baked into SNW, not only for this reason but because it balances between dark and light episodes. DISCO and PICARD could never do that simply because of the nature of the serialization. For the most part, they missed that sense of FUN that has been part of the franchise since TOS. SNW knows how to have fun, and is confident enough in itself to take all sorts of risks.
If the franchise did another series that was as arc driven as DISCO and PICARD were, would it work? That depends on a lot of things, but I think it comes down to this. I think the fatal flaw was the lack of fun. If light and dark can be brought into a serialized show, then I think it would work.
For now, we have SNW to give us that fun. And it's been great fun so far. Hope it gets to 100 episodes!
Yeah, definitely not. But, my list is quite limited on things that I think Star Trek needs to do.Who's list had Cartoon crossover and musical on them? Mine sure didn't.
Be entertaining, and have engaging characters. DSC did that, PIC almost did, and SNW has that down pretty well. LD and Prodigy are hit and miss.
You know where I stand, but that's not where I'm going to go with this. Instead, I'll ask...
Movies? What movies?
Second-worst season in the franchise... thinking back... thinking back.... oh yeah!!!! ... I'll have to look up the episode of TNG Season 1 that Pike was in!
For me, DISCO season 2 was easily the worst season in the franchise... until PICARD season 2 knocked it off that spot.
And I am including TAS.
I might as well fill in the gap.
Someone's eventually going to ask me, "What do you think comes in first place for worst?" ENT Season 2.
Someone's eventually going to ask me, "What do you think comes in first place for worst?" ENT Season 2.
I enjoyed some of Disco Season 2. The first half of the season was great, especially for Saru's character. It was really when Section 31 and Control got involved where the season started to lose a little focus. I still rank it better than Season 3 though. In terms of my least favorite season of Star Trek, it's either Picard season 2 or Enterprise Season 2 or TNG Season 1.
For me, in terms of answering this question, I appreciate the variety SNW has provided us. Instead of this serialized arc where the galaxy is in danger, we've gotten a musical, a crossover with an animated show, and likeable characters. We even got a war episode that gave me very much DS9 vibes.
Back when Disco was new there were many people arguing that the TOS aesthetic absolutely could not work on Trek any more.
One of the things SNW has done right is prove that assertion wrong. You don't have to have "cardboard sets" to respect the look of TOS. SNW obviously alters a lot but it feels more like the TOS era, and even edges closer to it every day with little stylistic additions harkening back to TOS popping up all over the place.
...and also dropping the obnoxious mid-air holograms. I've said that before, but I'll give it a thumbs up every chance I get.
One of the things SNW has done right is prove that assertion wrong. You don't have to have "cardboard sets" to respect the look of TOS. SNW obviously alters a lot but it feels more like the TOS era, and even edges closer to it every day with little stylistic additions harkening back to TOS popping up all over the place.
...and also dropping the obnoxious mid-air holograms. I've said that before, but I'll give it a thumbs up every chance I get.
Back when Disco was new there were many people arguing that the TOS aesthetic absolutely could not work on Trek any more.
One of the things SNW has done right is prove that assertion wrong. You don't have to have "cardboard sets" to respect the look of TOS. SNW obviously alters a lot but it feels more like the TOS era, and even edges closer to it every day with little stylistic additions harkening back to TOS popping up all over the place.
...and also dropping the obnoxious mid-air holograms. I've said that before, but I'll give it a thumbs up every chance I get.
speaking of the aesthetic, I don’t think I have liked trek uniforms this much since the First Contact era. The SNW uniforms are so clean and spiffy. I saw them up close in Vegas and it really convinced me how great of a job they did recreating and modernizing that look.
Likeable characters.
If you compare the Discovery and Picard (season 1 and 2 ) characters to Strange New Worlds, it's like daylight and dark. With Strange New Worlds, people care about Spock and Chapel. They like characters such Pike, Pella and Uhura. Contrast that with the others
Discovery season 1 is built around Burnham, Lorca, Saru, and Stamets. And I don't think any of them, at least initially, come off that well. The first episode has our protagonist, Burnham, betraying her captain and getting her killed. Saru is initially a sort of an annoying teacher's pet that quotes rules and regulations. Lorca comes off as creepy and slightly unhinged. And Stamets is an arrogant asshole when we first meet him. I've also thought it was a mistake in how Discovery never developed their supporting characters in the way past Trek series have, that way you could have Detmer or Owo carry an episode.
The initial Picard cast is similar. And I'd argue the reason season 3 works for the fans that loved it is that you give a shit about the TNG characters in ways that you didn't for the Picard characters in seasons 1 and 2.
If you compare the Discovery and Picard (season 1 and 2 ) characters to Strange New Worlds, it's like daylight and dark. With Strange New Worlds, people care about Spock and Chapel. They like characters such Pike, Pella and Uhura. Contrast that with the others
Discovery season 1 is built around Burnham, Lorca, Saru, and Stamets. And I don't think any of them, at least initially, come off that well. The first episode has our protagonist, Burnham, betraying her captain and getting her killed. Saru is initially a sort of an annoying teacher's pet that quotes rules and regulations. Lorca comes off as creepy and slightly unhinged. And Stamets is an arrogant asshole when we first meet him. I've also thought it was a mistake in how Discovery never developed their supporting characters in the way past Trek series have, that way you could have Detmer or Owo carry an episode.
The initial Picard cast is similar. And I'd argue the reason season 3 works for the fans that loved it is that you give a shit about the TNG characters in ways that you didn't for the Picard characters in seasons 1 and 2.
I don’t know, Citiprime, I actually really enjoyed DSC’s characters right from the start.
I feel like I could get lynched for saying this, but I’ve always enjoyed Burnham as a character and liked that she’s a deeply flawed protagonist. Saru I adored from the start. Sure, he’s a bit of a stick in the mud initially, but he was never less than a sheer joy to watch and instantly became one of my favourite Trek characters. I also loved Jason Isaacs as Lorca; a kind of antihero captain and played with such gravitas. I still miss him, frankly. The mirror universe twist was one of the boldest things Trek ever did, even if it wasn’t the best in ultimate execution. Stamets was fantastic and I also liked the fact he was a little grumpy; but a good guy. They really lost his character as the seasons progressed; and Saru’s, too; I can’t believe his arc of recent seasons has been little more than having a crush on the Vulcan leader (although I do like her too).
So, opinions do vary. TLDR: I’ve always found DSC’s characters likeable. Even the ones that maybe weren’t supposed to be.
I feel like I could get lynched for saying this, but I’ve always enjoyed Burnham as a character and liked that she’s a deeply flawed protagonist. Saru I adored from the start. Sure, he’s a bit of a stick in the mud initially, but he was never less than a sheer joy to watch and instantly became one of my favourite Trek characters. I also loved Jason Isaacs as Lorca; a kind of antihero captain and played with such gravitas. I still miss him, frankly. The mirror universe twist was one of the boldest things Trek ever did, even if it wasn’t the best in ultimate execution. Stamets was fantastic and I also liked the fact he was a little grumpy; but a good guy. They really lost his character as the seasons progressed; and Saru’s, too; I can’t believe his arc of recent seasons has been little more than having a crush on the Vulcan leader (although I do like her too).
So, opinions do vary. TLDR: I’ve always found DSC’s characters likeable. Even the ones that maybe weren’t supposed to be.
I really miss the arrogant asshole version of Staments. He was great.
But I guess getting high on sporestuff on the regular and horrible trauma and then getting a family mellowed him out a bit.
But I guess getting high on sporestuff on the regular and horrible trauma and then getting a family mellowed him out a bit.
I liked all the DSC characters specifically because they were not the standard cookie-cutter Starfleet crewmembers we’d seen for 50 years already.
Unfortunately, most of these characters were built specifically for the storyline needs of S1, and as we’ve gotten further and further away from that point, the characters are less and less of a fit and typically have no really unique or meaningful function in the story.
Unfortunately, most of these characters were built specifically for the storyline needs of S1, and as we’ve gotten further and further away from that point, the characters are less and less of a fit and typically have no really unique or meaningful function in the story.
Same. I'm tired of being told I'm not a person because "people don't like DSC characters or Picard characters. " I love Burnham and Saru, Detmer and Tilly. I was quite enjoying Elnor.
I like SNW characters but I don't like them more or less, save for Pike.
I like(d) and care(d) about all the characters in DSC and PIC S1-S2. You either care about the characters or you don't.
As far as SNW and PIC S3, not exactly a fair comparison. Why? Let's be honest here and get to what's not being said. Spock, Uhura, Chapel. What do they all have in common? They're characters from TOS! Kirk too. In PIC S3, who's there? The entire TNG cast! You cared about these characters before a single frame of SNW or PIC S3 was even shot!
You also don't need an episode centered around a character to make you care about them. You cared about Ortegas before there was an episode focused on her. Airiam had an episode focused on her and all a lot of you could do was be mock-outraged. Peila has never had an episode focusing on her, that I know of, but I suspect you care about her. So please don't say you need an episode focused on a character in order to care about them. That's demonstrably not true.
As far as SNW and PIC S3, not exactly a fair comparison. Why? Let's be honest here and get to what's not being said. Spock, Uhura, Chapel. What do they all have in common? They're characters from TOS! Kirk too. In PIC S3, who's there? The entire TNG cast! You cared about these characters before a single frame of SNW or PIC S3 was even shot!
You also don't need an episode centered around a character to make you care about them. You cared about Ortegas before there was an episode focused on her. Airiam had an episode focused on her and all a lot of you could do was be mock-outraged. Peila has never had an episode focusing on her, that I know of, but I suspect you care about her. So please don't say you need an episode focused on a character in order to care about them. That's demonstrably not true.
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I do too. One of the things I really liked on my second viewing of season 1. Really wish he had stuck around a little longer.
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