This is part of what bothers me. Gunn likes to tout himself as a storyteller first and foremost, but it seems as though the integrity of this story and these characters didn't matter to him, because he perceived them as conflicting with his own future plans. It strikes me as a very callous and self-serving attitude to take, and very disrespectful toward this film's creators, the affected characters and actors, and the audience.
But i wonder how much of it was really Gunn, and how much was dictated by Zaslav, who gave Gunn the parameters to work within.
Zaslav was also the one saying this is the greatest Superhero movie of all time, and that this, Shazam 2 and Black Adam were getting enhancements to make them even better.
Some of what Gunn says i think is just trying to please the boss. Some stuff, like how WB was indeed giving just about anyone a license to do something DC related (and giving us the separated mess rather than a cohesive universe like the MCU).
The Flash (2023)
The DCEU continues and ends simultaneously, with far too many numbskulled BTS decisions, altering the outcome of this film.
Yeah, there was just
so much that derailed this film... including the multitude of directors that came and went, and Covid, not to mention some of the more "obvious" problems
GREAT: Seeing the proper/prime JL members in action for the last time, and Affleck's all too brief scenes as the perfect Bruce Wayne with his flawless perspective on why no one should manipulate time.
The Wonder Woman theme is always welcome.
I hope they keep this theme....it just feels as much a classic as the John WIlliams Superman theme.
Sasha Calle's Supergirl was wonderful, despite the character having to be thrust into action before she was ready. Still, her performance justifies the original plan to give her a solo film, and makes the decision to cancel that film a major regret, but in the grand scheme of things...SEE NOTES.
Cavil's Superman in news coverage and in the time stream as Clark and Superman.
GOOD:
Ezra Miller's double duty was handled well enough; Prime Barry needing to school his younger self illustrates just how much he's matured since his first, full-on appearance in the DCEU.
Barry's relationship with his mother hit all of the emotional points, with the final grocery store scene being highly effective. Of course, if he had only listened to Bruce, he would have spared himself the painful lesson that you cannot change time and its natural, propulsory framework, which is fate.
Yeah, I felt they did a decent job selling the family love, so it actually mattered to the viewer
So, he believes Bruce is his best friend? We realize he sees Bruce as a mentor, but they have come a long way for Barry to see Bruce in that way.
Well, don't forget, Barry really doesn't have
any friends, so at least from Barry;s perspective, that seems true about Bruce. (I think he's too nervous around Diana and too intimidated by Arthur, and they seem to be ignoring Ray FIsher; also Bruce was the one who invited Barry to join)
Only a few things I'd classify as bad, starting with the "wall of noise" that stood in for a score; there was nothing appealing, or memorable about that generic "big movie action score" at all, and is arguably the weakest DCEU score to date.
CG across the board: I was under the impression the glaringly poor CG characters, vehicles, explosions and the stream of time events would have been corrected before this final cut, but sadly, it was not to be the case. While I certainly appreciated seeing the one and only Cavill Superman in news footage, it was so clearly a CG figure that it almost took me out of the film.
The use of Chicago's "25 or 6 to 4" to pump up the elderly Wayne's kitchen fight was flat-out ridiculous, especially if one knows what the song means, and why its not just some accent to a scene.
The rather significant problem with the Clooney cameo is that Barry--having learned a painful lesson about altering timelines--is now obligated to correct it again, unless the story is saying he really did not return to his reality. If he leaves things "as is", it flushes the entire point of his journey into the past, as he would accept altering the life and history of a free individual. If ever there was cause for a Flash sequel (that will never be produced) it is the altered Wayne business.
You are overthinking this... i think this was just a joke. Y'know, the kind you might see in a Whedon movie that you would hate. Kinda like that lasso of truth gag, which totally reminded me of that scene in the Whedon Justice League. Surprised you didn't put this in the "bad"
Some audience members theorized that Clooney was inserted just to hammer home the idea that the Prime DC universe was ending, and/or explained why Affleck's Batman was supposedly cut from the forthcoming Aquaman 2. Who knows at this point.
Keaton quoting lines from the '89 film--was cringeworthy, which the film did not need, considering the gravity of Barry's situation. Thankfully, there's no chance of Keaton returning to the DCEU.
NOTES:
As noted above, Sasha Calle's Supergirl may not get her solo film, but I'm fine with the decision, only because her Supergirl's death--along with her world--was necessary to finally hammer Bruce's words into his head regarding creating more damage, and not accepting the scars that one endures and how they shape a person throughout life.
The alternate earth--with its elderly Batman is not necessarily the one from Burton's awful film, but if it is, then its fate closes a rather permanent lid on the entire, misguided Burton/Schumacher Bat-series.
The multiverse "globe" scene was never the major factor some early screening reviewers suggested it would be. On first viewing, I missed the West Batman, but caught him in this latest screening....if only the CG was not so video-gamey.
I would have preferred to see a Kirk Allyn Superman, and if the producers had to use Reeves, they should have created a color version, instead of using the B&W era as the basis of the CG element, since it suggests the Reeves world is in B&W.
From what I gathered, the CW/Berlanti universe was kicked to the curb, as I did not see any of the main characters or events from that set of series in the film.
Iknow you were totally fine with this... but that was such a missed "freebie" that could have boosted things. When the Flash TV first started, they announced things that got fans riled up (in a good way), which helped propel the show to be the CW's #1 show for a while. And while i was bitter about Ezra Miller being cast, and tossed aside his "MULTIVERSE!" plea, i don't think i was alone when i got super excited when he showed up. Doing a mirror image of that would have created some positive buzz...instead of reminding us what a mess the division of Film and TV was
GRADE(S):
A: For everything in the "GREAT" category.
B: For the "GOOD" elements.
B average for me... the negatives help sabotage the "great"
Strawman argument since the cast and crew have already been paid. (Minus any actors who were looking for Points.) Or do you think the people who made 'Batgirl' got no money for it?
As been said, there are residuals But also just as important as money, is the buzz... so for the director of Batgirl.... many of us saw the work on Ms. Marvel, and certainly made me excited for any future projects. The theatrical release would have helped boost that reputation and give more opportunities.
With Ezra Miller... many of us are conflicted, and they didn't want a good performance by Ezra Miller to cover the crimes of Ezra Miller.
That’s a lot higher than I thought you would give it.
I still find it baffling that they cut Grant Gustin but they kept Zoom. I don’t get the logic behind that
The Ezra Miller version is the favorite for
@TREK_GOD_1
I don't understand cutting Grant either.... it was foolish... they could have had them meet with minimal effects, but a whole lot of positive impact.
I wasn’t that impressed with Supergirl. I just didn’t think there was much to her. She was simply there for a plot device.
I don’t know what I was expecting but I was expecting something more with her.
Calle was great, but she was served very poorly by the film (especially in its final Gunn-approved form).
I agree too... a whole lot of stuff didn't make sense... like at what age was she imprisoned? For how long? And how did she know English so well?
I know that the movie industry looks down of TV. Like it’s beneath them or something. It’s just that they insisted that Ezra appear in Crisis. I just thought it would make sense to do vice Versa, considering he got the name “the Flash” from Grant. He never had a superhero name in Justice League.
If it was just movie characters, I would have preferred Routh, Bale or the Twilight guy. It would have been more impactful if it was them and not just poor cgi versions of them.
Yeah, it really makes no sense in ignoring him... though i wonder how it would have fit in.... also, that brings up... would
No Blue Beetle?
This would have been a perfect opportunity for synergy.
I was wrong, but I thought that George Lopez was going to be Ted Kord.
I think they are stratgically making it vague. So if Blue Beetle fails, it goes away with the DCFU. If it is a surprise hit, then he gets to be part of the DCOU. We will know between about Mid-September and Oct 1
"I want these pictures of Supergirl to show our kids."
Words to that effect, in the trailer.
I interpreted that as Barry Allen's future kids (with Younger Barry thinking he and Future Barry would eventually be the same, or something like that... he seemed a lot ditzier than "our" Barry, though)
And yet we're still down from pre Covid levels. Personally I've all but stopped going to the cinema but that's because i'm sick of other people's behaviour in screenings.
This is SUCH a classic use of this meme. Had the WB been united... they could have
easily fit the TV Flash into that Justice League. I mean, that Barry started off not that much different than the Ezra Miller Version. The show could have had some high class effects thrown in from some movie shots or something. Such a waste...
That's a non sequitur, since Snyder has had nothing to do with the past eight DCEU theatrical releases (aside from what I presume is a token producer credit on Wonder Woman '84). I don't care for Snyder's films, but they make up very much the minority of the DCEU, and there are a number of other DCEU films I've quite enjoyed.
Indeed, part of what I like about the post-Snyder DCEU is that it isn't a single monolithic thing; for the past five years, each film has been allowed to be its own distinct entity, its filmmakers' idiosyncratic creation with minimal connections to any of the others beyond the shared background (although The Flash appears to be very much an exception to that, and Shazam!: Fury of the Gods was to an extent as well).
The problem is, Snyder influenced the first 3 films of the DCFU, deflating what could have been great momentum. As a progressive who believes in Critical Race Theory, you would surely agree that one can still be greatly affected by one's "ancestor", and surely that's what happened with the DCFU.
It was Snyder who cast Miller and each of the Justice Leaguers who appeared in the film, and set the general tone of their characterizations, so rightly or wrongly, Snyder will get the credit or the blame for most of the DCEU even when other directors have taken what he established and built upon them.
@Supervisor 194 has it right.
@Christopher you seem to have completely forgotten that Snuder fans helped bring us the Zack Snyder Justice League on the then HBOMAX.
Also, a lot of the hate and loss of momentum of the DCFU was due to those major missteps starting at Man of Steel, and they never recovered from.
I have been critical of much of his approach to this universe but I think he utterly nailed the casting. I think time will be kinder even to Jesse Eisenberg’s controversial Lex Luthor than critics and fans were at the time.
I very much agree on that... I mean, i
do have problems with Eisenberg's Luthor, but in light of the follow 3 1/2 years of the US presidency, his Luthor seems
very realistic... he was just a bit ahead of his time, and a little off ("very stable genius")
I think the success or failure of Snyder's casting depends upon if one likes his takes on the characters. I don't like the Aqua-Dude-Bro take on the King of the Seven Seas, so I don't particularly think Momoa is great casting. I don't really care for Snyder's take on any of the Justice Leaguers with a possible exception for Wonder Woman, so his casting choices fall flat for me. That being said, his choices do portray what he directed them to portray.
I can understand why you say that. But for me, who grew up with Aquaman being a joke, Momoa is the polar opposite. ANd is he's like the "bad boy"Jason in Battle of the Planets...and a real good contrast to Ezra Miller's Barry Allen, and the rest of the League.
Casting is one of the few things I think Snyder did superbly. There are other things, like basic storytelling, that I think he's dreadful at. No person is just one thing. And the DCEU is not just one thing. Snyder is merely one of the many factors that went into it. It makes no more sense to give him all the credit or blame than it would to deny his contributions entirely.
So it's Ryan George's fault!!! Man... this is so one the nose in a lot of ways. It definitely
feels like it was jinxed from the start.
