Spoilers The Flash (2023) -Review and Discussion Thread
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I'm considering watching this movie because any modern Supergirl is an interesting character.
But I want to be morally on the right side - is it okay, or is it not okay, to watch a movie promoting Ezra Miller? They are currently rumored to have committed horrific crimes.
But I want to be morally on the right side - is it okay, or is it not okay, to watch a movie promoting Ezra Miller? They are currently rumored to have committed horrific crimes.
^ That question was recently hashed ad nauseam in the "DC Movies - To Infinity and Beyond" thread.
For my part, I don't not watch things because of the personal sins of the creatives involved, but everybody's got to make their own moral peace on that issue.
For my part, I don't not watch things because of the personal sins of the creatives involved, but everybody's got to make their own moral peace on that issue.
This is part of what I hate about the modern tendency to treat "the multiverse" as a metatextual thing that all stories have to be forced into. You don't need an in-story "explanation" for why the continuity changes! Just tell a different version of the story, and let the previous one stand as its own entity! We didn't need an explanation for why Christian Bale's Batman was different from George Clooney's, or why Andrew Garfield's Spider-Man was different from Tobey Maguire's. They were just alternate variations on the theme. Instead of using The Flash to reboot the universe, they should've just let it be its own story. Okay, I know that Flashpoint was one of DC's many universe reboots, but the movie based on it didn't have to be. (Indeed, I would've rather seen a Flash movie based on anything other than Flashpoint.)
Julius Schwartz, the editor who oversaw the creation of Barry Allen and pretty much the entire Silver and Bronze Age DC Universe, was guilty of things at least as bad over a much longer period. If the artist taints the art, then The Flash was tainted long before Ezra Miller was born. But I believe the art is not the artist. Many horrible people have created great things, and we can celebrate the good they created without endorsing the bad things they did elsewhere in their lives.
And a movie this big has thousands of people involved in its creation. The lead actor may be the face we see the most, but they're just an employee following other people's instructions. The movie doesn't belong to them in the same way that, say, a novel belongs to its author.
Grooming a 12 year old child is several miles beyond "personal sins".
Thank you, I'm looking into that discussion now.
True. Normally the getaway is, if said creator cannot personally profit anymore.
The Flash (2023)
The DCEU continues and ends simultaneously, with far too many numbskulled BTS decisions, altering the outcome of this film.
GREAT: Seeing the proper/prime JL members in action for the last time, and Affleck's all too brief scenes as the perfect Bruce Wayne with his flawless perspective on why no one should manipulate time.
The Wonder Woman theme is always welcome.
Sasha Calle's Supergirl was wonderful, despite the character having to be thrust into action before she was ready. Still, her performance justifies the original plan to give her a solo film, and makes the decision to cancel that film a major regret, but in the grand scheme of things...SEE NOTES.
Cavil's Superman in news coverage and in the time stream as Clark and Superman.
GOOD:
Ezra Miller's double duty was handled well enough; Prime Barry needing to school his younger self illustrates just how much he's matured since his first, full-on appearance in the DCEU.
Barry's relationship with his mother hit all of the emotional points, with the final grocery store scene being highly effective. Of course, if he had only listened to Bruce, he would have spared himself the painful lesson that you cannot change time and its natural, propulsory framework, which is fate.
So, he believes Bruce is his best friend? We realize he sees Bruce as a mentor, but they have come a long way for Barry to see Bruce in that way.
BAD: Only a few things I'd classify as bad, starting with the "wall of noise" that stood in for a score; there was nothing appealing, or memorable about that generic "big movie action score" at all, and is arguably the weakest DCEU score to date.
CG across the board: I was under the impression the glaringly poor CG characters, vehicles, explosions and the stream of time events would have been corrected before this final cut, but sadly, it was not to be the case. While I certainly appreciated seeing the one and only Cavill Superman in news footage, it was so clearly a CG figure that it almost took me out of the film.
The use of Chicago's "25 or 6 to 4" to pump up the elderly Wayne's kitchen fight was flat-out ridiculous, especially if one knows what the song means, and why its not just some accent to a scene.
The rather significant problem with the Clooney cameo is that Barry--having learned a painful lesson about altering timelines--is now obligated to correct it again, unless the story is saying he really did not return to his reality. If he leaves things "as is", it flushes the entire point of his journey into the past, as he would accept altering the life and history of a free individual. If ever there was cause for a Flash sequel (that will never be produced) it is the altered Wayne business.
Some audience members theorized that Clooney was inserted just to hammer home the idea that the Prime DC universe was ending, and/or explained why Affleck's Batman was supposedly cut from the forthcoming Aquaman 2. Who knows at this point.
Keaton quoting lines from the '89 film--was cringeworthy, which the film did not need, considering the gravity of Barry's situation. Thankfully, there's no chance of Keaton returning to the DCEU.
NOTES:
As noted above, Sasha Calle's Supergirl may not get her solo film, but I'm fine with the decision, only because her Supergirl's death--along with her world--was necessary to finally hammer Bruce's words into his head regarding creating more damage, and not accepting the scars that one endures and how they shape a person throughout life.
The alternate earth--with its elderly Batman is not necessarily the one from Burton's awful film, but if it is, then its fate closes a rather permanent lid on the entire, misguided Burton/Schumacher Bat-series.
The multiverse "globe" scene was never the major factor some early screening reviewers suggested it would be. On first viewing, I missed the West Batman, but caught him in this latest screening....if only the CG was not so video-gamey.
I would have preferred to see a Kirk Allyn Superman, and if the producers had to use Reeves, they should have created a color version, instead of using the B&W era as the basis of the CG element, since it suggests the Reeves world is in B&W.
From what I gathered, the CW/Berlanti universe was kicked to the curb, as I did not see any of the main characters or events from that set of series in the film.
GRADE(S):
A: For everything in the "GREAT" category.
B: For the "GOOD" elements.
The DCEU continues and ends simultaneously, with far too many numbskulled BTS decisions, altering the outcome of this film.
GREAT: Seeing the proper/prime JL members in action for the last time, and Affleck's all too brief scenes as the perfect Bruce Wayne with his flawless perspective on why no one should manipulate time.
The Wonder Woman theme is always welcome.
Sasha Calle's Supergirl was wonderful, despite the character having to be thrust into action before she was ready. Still, her performance justifies the original plan to give her a solo film, and makes the decision to cancel that film a major regret, but in the grand scheme of things...SEE NOTES.
Cavil's Superman in news coverage and in the time stream as Clark and Superman.
GOOD:
Ezra Miller's double duty was handled well enough; Prime Barry needing to school his younger self illustrates just how much he's matured since his first, full-on appearance in the DCEU.
Barry's relationship with his mother hit all of the emotional points, with the final grocery store scene being highly effective. Of course, if he had only listened to Bruce, he would have spared himself the painful lesson that you cannot change time and its natural, propulsory framework, which is fate.
So, he believes Bruce is his best friend? We realize he sees Bruce as a mentor, but they have come a long way for Barry to see Bruce in that way.
BAD: Only a few things I'd classify as bad, starting with the "wall of noise" that stood in for a score; there was nothing appealing, or memorable about that generic "big movie action score" at all, and is arguably the weakest DCEU score to date.
CG across the board: I was under the impression the glaringly poor CG characters, vehicles, explosions and the stream of time events would have been corrected before this final cut, but sadly, it was not to be the case. While I certainly appreciated seeing the one and only Cavill Superman in news footage, it was so clearly a CG figure that it almost took me out of the film.
The use of Chicago's "25 or 6 to 4" to pump up the elderly Wayne's kitchen fight was flat-out ridiculous, especially if one knows what the song means, and why its not just some accent to a scene.
The rather significant problem with the Clooney cameo is that Barry--having learned a painful lesson about altering timelines--is now obligated to correct it again, unless the story is saying he really did not return to his reality. If he leaves things "as is", it flushes the entire point of his journey into the past, as he would accept altering the life and history of a free individual. If ever there was cause for a Flash sequel (that will never be produced) it is the altered Wayne business.
Some audience members theorized that Clooney was inserted just to hammer home the idea that the Prime DC universe was ending, and/or explained why Affleck's Batman was supposedly cut from the forthcoming Aquaman 2. Who knows at this point.
Keaton quoting lines from the '89 film--was cringeworthy, which the film did not need, considering the gravity of Barry's situation. Thankfully, there's no chance of Keaton returning to the DCEU.
NOTES:
As noted above, Sasha Calle's Supergirl may not get her solo film, but I'm fine with the decision, only because her Supergirl's death--along with her world--was necessary to finally hammer Bruce's words into his head regarding creating more damage, and not accepting the scars that one endures and how they shape a person throughout life.
The alternate earth--with its elderly Batman is not necessarily the one from Burton's awful film, but if it is, then its fate closes a rather permanent lid on the entire, misguided Burton/Schumacher Bat-series.
The multiverse "globe" scene was never the major factor some early screening reviewers suggested it would be. On first viewing, I missed the West Batman, but caught him in this latest screening....if only the CG was not so video-gamey.
I would have preferred to see a Kirk Allyn Superman, and if the producers had to use Reeves, they should have created a color version, instead of using the B&W era as the basis of the CG element, since it suggests the Reeves world is in B&W.
From what I gathered, the CW/Berlanti universe was kicked to the curb, as I did not see any of the main characters or events from that set of series in the film.
GRADE(S):
A: For everything in the "GREAT" category.
B: For the "GOOD" elements.
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But if there are many people involved in the creation, is it fair to deprive everyone else of profit in order to punish just one?
That said, I did wait to see the Ender's Game movie and the last couple of Fantastic Beasts movies until I could get them from the library.
Strawman argument since the cast and crew have already been paid. (Minus any actors who were looking for Points.) Or do you think the people who made 'Batgirl' got no money for it?
Those that are upset over the ending where they die... Refer to the animated universe.. That's 8 years of films flushed down the toilet. I know.. The movies still exist but the whole iniverse was reset. Thanks Barry!
Wrong. Everyone in the "above-the-line" credits (the ones traditionally shown at the start of the film, and these days the ones generally shown before the mid-credit scene, like actors, director, producers, writers, composer, cinematographer, editor, etc.) gets residuals as a percentage of ticket sales and home video sales of the film. For above-the-line talent, "getting paid" is not a single lump sum -- residuals are part of the contractually agreed payment for a creator's or actor's work, which is why the failure of streamers to pay decent residuals is one of the major causes of the current writers' strike. So if the film makes less profit, all those people, not just the actors, make less money.
Besides, even if you were right, how would it apply any differently to Miller than to any other member of the cast and crew? If skipping the movie doesn't hurt them, how could it hurt Miller? And if skipping it doesn't hurt Miller, then surely that implies there's no harm in seeing it. So I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.
That’s a lot higher than I thought you would give it.
I still find it baffling that they cut Grant Gustin but they kept Zoom. I don’t get the logic behind that
The grades are for certain parts of the film. If not for Supergirl and Prime Batman and Wonder Woman's appearances, that grade would have dropped to a "B-".
In the end, I believe it was a message supporting what DCEU viewers believed all along: the characters portrayed by Gustin, Amell, Benoist, Cress Williams,Tyler Hoechlin, Ruby Rose, Javicia Leslie, Brec Bassinger, Garber, Lotz, et al, are not an official part of the Man of Steel continuity, and that the stunt guest cameo from Miller on the CW episode is not part of the continuity, either (and you'd imagine that Barry would have mentioned what should have been a significant moment if he crossed paths with another Flash in the past, but...).
It's not Zoom, just a generic Jay Garrick that happens to resemble Teddy Sears. https://tvline.com/news/the-flash-movie-cameo-teddy-sears-reaction-denial-jay-garrick-1235001717/
Still, it is weird that they'd include so many recognizable versions of Superman, Batman, etc. yet only offer a generic version of an alternate Flash.
I wasn’t that impressed with Supergirl. I just didn’t think there was much to her. She was simply there for a plot device.
I don’t know what I was expecting but I was expecting something more with her.
The only TV cameos are from the George Reeves and Adam West series, with the rest all being from movies (including the unmade Nicolas Cage Superman movie). Evidently the filmmakers weren't interested in engaging with the modern TV side of DC, which is not unusual for the feature film industry (note how the theatrical MCU never acknowledged Agents of SHIELD or the Netflix Marvel shows).
Calle was great, but she was served very poorly by the film (especially in its final Gunn-approved form).
I wouldn't necessarily call Reeves and West "TV cameos", as each of them did have theatrically released movies.
