Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 3x08 - "Surrender"

[SpocksOddSocks]

. The only real problem is her goons are just that, goons, and in the few interactions between her crew — for which I don’t even get subtitles on Amazon without turning them on for everything — there is very little sense of them.

Whilst I noticed this in E6, it seems to have been fixed for me for the past couple (and even e6 on rewatching). But not for lower decks.

Having said that, when I had the issue, Amazon didn't even give me then translation with subtitles on, I only got *speaking alien* come up on screen.

Conversely, the alien translation did come up on Lower Decks S1E2 if I had the subtitles on, but still not without.

 

[BBC 2 6pm]

We'd have to disagree there, although I've watched very little of the new stuff. What I'd add though is you'd forgive alot of failings if you felt that you were in good hands.

Yeah fair enough, I was thinking of the old stuff though. Just a few more examples that come to mind. In DS9, how was a space station able to fight off a massive Klingon fleet and hold its own for awhile against a massiver Dominion fleet? In TNG why do they keep letting Data take over the ship?

 

[Cortez]

Yeah fair enough, I was thinking of the old stuff though. Just a few more examples that come to mind. In DS9, how was a space station able to fight off a massive Klingon fleet and hold its own for awhile against a massiver Dominion fleet? In TNG why do they keep letting Data take over the ship?

Again, you're mentioning moments from the shows, shows that spanned many years and episodes. I'm sure you could unearth moments from some of the greatest shows of all time that didn't quite add up but you accept it because you know that you've generally been in safe hands and it's an aberration rather than the norm: You're willing to take a leap of faith since you've trusted them as storytellers thus far. That's the key difference here.

I was talking about one situation in one episode yesterday to just highlight how poorly this season has been written overall. Quite a big difference.

 

[BBC 2 6pm]

Again, you're mentioning moments from the shows, shows that spanned many years and episodes. I'm sure you could unearth moments from some of the greatest shows of all time that didn't quite add up but you accept it because you know that you've generally been in safe hands and it's an aberration rather than the norm: You're willing to take a leap of faith since you've trusted them as storytellers thus far. That's the key difference here.

I was talking about one situation in one episode yesterday to just highlight how poorly this season has been written overall. Quite a big difference.

No, those are just the things that come to my mind. I've always known that (with a few notable exceptions) Star Trek was feel good schlock. I can acknowledge all the gaping plot holes and so on in Picard but still enjoy it because I didn't expect anything different. I don't really come to Star Trek for a good story, or even particularly good writing. (Again, with exceptions.) I think every single Star Trek movie has a massive plot hole.

As I've said though, I can see why others may feel differently now that the seralised bar has been raised.

 

[Cortez]

No, those are just the things that come to my mind. I've always known that (with a few notable exceptions) Star Trek was feel good schlock. I can acknowledge all the gaping plot holes and so on in Picard but still enjoy it because I didn't expect anything different. I don't really come to Star Trek for a good story, or even particularly good writing. (Again, with exceptions.) I think every single Star Trek movie has a massive plot hole.

As I've said though, I can see why others may feel differently now that the seralised bar has been raised.

Appreciate where you're coming from but can't agree with you. There has to be a story there of some kind to keep you hooked. A well paced and structured plot. Even some of the crappier old Trek still had this to a certain extent. I'm just continuously scratching my head watching this wondering how did this get the seal of approval in the writer's room? I'm also wondering how the directors and actors approached each scene... what's my motivation in this one? Do I hate her here or like her? Am I menacing or an imbecile here? Jaysus, I have no idea. Hang on till I check. But anyway, I do appreciate where you're coming from.

 

[Ovation]

Peoples biggest frustration is ‘we don’t know what the plan is! Who is the baddie!’
But that’s ok — nor do the characters.

It’s as if some people want Space Columbo. I loved Columbo (for anyone who doesn’t know, Columbo was a TV detective primarily in the 1970s—we always knew everything upfront and the point was to watch how Columbo figured it out—it was only ever a mystery to him, but I think it only really worked because Peter Falk was such a good actor) but Trek has always been, to me, at its best when we accompany the characters as they solve the mystery or problem. They’re not omniscient and neither are we. Ah well, potayto/potahto.

 

[Christmas Canon Spock]

No, those are just the things that come to my mind. I've always known that (with a few notable exceptions) Star Trek was feel good schlock. I can acknowledge all the gaping plot holes and so on in Picard but still enjoy it because I didn't expect anything different. I don't really come to Star Trek for a good story, or even particularly good writing. (Again, with exceptions.) I think every single Star Trek movie has a massive plot hole.

As I've said though, I can see why others may feel differently now that the seralised bar has been raised.

This is exactly my approach. I don't labor under any pretense that Trek was the gold standard of writing. There are plot holes, or contrivance, logic errors or just character oddities. What keeps me hooked is the characters and interest in them.

Not saying everything works for everyone, but generally speaking I'm more forgiving of plot holes when I'm invested in characters.

 

[Cortez]

It’s as if some people want Space Columbo. I loved Columbo (for anyone who doesn’t know, Columbo was a TV detective primarily in the 1970s—we always knew everything upfront and the point was to watch how Columbo figured it out—it was only ever a mystery to him, but I think it only really worked because Peter Falk was such a good actor) but Trek has always been, to me, at its best when we accompany the characters as they solve the mystery or problem. They’re not omniscient and neither are we. Ah well, potayto/potahto.

The greatest show of all time, and I'll hear nothing else spoken on the subject. The original run obviously. Well played sir.

 

[ananta]

i only just got to see this. I can’t even contemplate scrolling through 60 pages of comments, so apologies if my thoughts are redundant and have already been discussed in detail.

Frankly, the scene with all TNG crew finally together again in the observation lounge was…well, it kind of melted my heart. More than I thought it would.It was enough to offset a slight feeling of disappointment with the rest of the episode—which was enjoyable, if flawed.

I feel we’ve been treading water a somewhat and the plot isn’t really moving forward on anything other than impulse power. Episodes 7 and 8 felt like they should have been condensed into a single, tighter episode. Vadic ended up being just another cookie-cutter Trek villain of the type we’ve seen far too much of from TNG movies onward. I never really felt for her at all, even though we should have felt some sympathy for what had been done to her. There just wasn’t much more to her other than standard moustache-twirling psychopathic dick. I’m also over the Jack “mystery box” plot at this stage. The cliffhanger of episode 7 promised a big reveal that was not forthcoming which was a bit of a cheat for me.

At this point, i really need a change of scenery as we’ve been stuck on the Titan way too long. It didn’t help that, again, the photography was way too dark and murky (I know the ship was meant to be in darkness, but a good photography director could still use the lighting to dynamic effect without it looking like somebody slapped a grey filter over the camera lens; check the beautiful use of chiaroscuro in Generations; darkly lit sets, but the crew were always strongly lit). I know people on here tend to roll their eyes when others complain “it’s too daaaark” but I’m quite visually oriented, particularly with regard to use of light and colours, and unfortunately this has been one of the most visually unappealing Trek seasons for me.

I loved the Riker and Deanna scenes. Marina Sirtis was surprisingly great. Like, I suppose, many actors in long running roles, I feel she’d started simply playing herself, often not even bothering to disguise her cockney accent, but she felt much more like Deanna to me here.

Worf’s awkward scene with Deanna was a strange one. I think we’d all tried to erase their strange little season 7 affair from our memories; it was a little jarring for it suddenly to be addressed again after having been flat-out ignored through the movies. I’m hoping we get a little more focus on Worf; what’s really been going on with him, and where is his head at these days? They’ve been teasing something quite fascinating but it’s too vague and throwaway at the moment. I hope he gets some good, serious scenes before final curtail call.

The Data/Lore battle was predictable and yet also quite touching—particularly when we saw Spot and Data admitted that Spot (now a male again?) had taught him to love. After season on, I was quite certain Data was gone forever, yet they’ve effectively “Search for Spock”ed him here, and I’m fine with it. It feels earned.

I’m hopeful and excited for the final two episodes.

 

[Ovation]

Not saying everything works for everyone, but generally speaking I'm more forgiving of plot holes when I'm invested in characters.

When I was…younger, I watched film and TV for the plot/story first and all else was quite a bit lower on the list. Finding flaws and inconsistencies was like a sport. Sharing my “discoveries”, though, wasn’t as much fun for others around me as I thought it should have been. Turns out being a 15-22 year old trying to show everyone how clever he is became tiresome. Who knew?
Over time, however, my interest shifted to performances. In part because I can enjoy a good performance more than once (unlike a mystery that only works the first time) and, in part, because after watching enough film and TV, flaws in plot/story become evident almost everywhere (especially if seen more than once). So it’s either abandon all but a very little film and TV (an entirely fair choice) or find something about them to enjoy that renders the flaws moot. Doesn’t always work—some things are really bad (especially if the performances are not sufficient to overcome the other flaws), but this approach has certainly allowed me to enjoy more entertainment than I used to (and made me far less insufferable to those around me…I think. ).

 

[Ovation]

Worf’s awkward scene with Deanna was a strange one

I took it as a way to test them as potential changelings (who would not have reacted in the same way), though I do think it could have been better executed.

 

[BBC 2 6pm]

I took it as a way to test them as potential changelings (who would not have reacted in the same way), though I do think it could have been better executed.

Worf's faux-profound talk is one of the things I'm really enjoying about this season. I've known a few guys go this way in their 50s and 60s, holding court with slightly lame self-help slogans the way they held court about car engines 20 years earlier. It makes sense that all the energy he used to spend on what a True Klingon is like would have to go somewhere; now it's on what a Truly Englightened person is like.

 

[Christmas Canon Spock]

When I was…younger, I watched film and TV for the plot/story first and all else was quite a bit lower on the list. Finding flaws and inconsistencies was like a sport. Sharing my “discoveries”, though, wasn’t as much fun for others around me as I thought it should have been. Turns out being a 15-22 year old trying to show everyone how clever he is became tiresome. Who knew?
Over time, however, my interest shifted to performances. In part because I can enjoy a good performance more than once (unlike a mystery that only works the first time) and, in part, because after watching enough film and TV, flaws in plot/story become evident almost everywhere (especially if seen more than once). So it’s either abandon all but a very little film and TV (an entirely fair choice) or find something about them to enjoy that renders the flaws moot. Doesn’t always work—some things are really bad (especially if the performances are not sufficient to overcome the other flaws), but this approach has certainly allowed me to enjoy more entertainment than I used to (and made me far less insufferable to those around me…I think. ).

I was a similar way and probably just as insufferable. I think my big "this isn't fun anymore " moment was discovering the website "Movie Mistakes." It had Star Wars as one of the top films with the most mistakes. And as I read it I realized I didn't care about those points; I loved the movie. So, i let it go. Things are a little less rose colored but I love the characters more for it.

Hopefully I'm less insufferable too. I know I'm a work in progress...

 

[ReddishAlert]

One great thing about fiction and, well, life is that more than one person can have a valid point even if they are at odds.

I know why Seven is Seven’s real name. Especially having watched Voyager. I understand she has the right to to it and being called it.

But it isn’t as simple as just Shaw/Trauma/Jerk vs. Seven self defining. Because in this case Seven of Nine isn’t merely a name it’s a designation of a species which has committed atrocities.

It is under valuing why life is complex to just want Shaw to get over it because it is completely understandable that to Shaw what he hears is like telling somebody who was in a concentration camp that you’d like to be called by your SS title.

We know, as viewers, that isn’t what the name means to Seven or why that’s how she self defines. But to Shaw his friends were killed by a lot of Four of Eights and Six of Nines etc.

It’s not an unreasonable reaction even if it is offensive to Seven and us as viewers who know Seven.

 

[jaime]

One great thing about fiction and, well, life is that more than one person can have a valid point even if they are at odds.

I know why Seven is Seven’s real name. Especially having watched Voyager. I understand she has the right to to it and being called it.

But it isn’t as simple as just Shaw/Trauma/Jerk vs. Seven self defining. Because in this case Seven of Nine isn’t merely a name it’s a designation of a species which has committed atrocities.

It is under valuing why life is complex to just want Shaw to get over it because it is completely understandable that to Shaw what he hears is like telling somebody who was in a concentration camp that you’d like to be called by your SS title.

We know, as viewers, that isn’t what the name means to Seven or why that’s how she self defines. But to Shaw his friends were killed by a lot of Four of Eights and Six of Nines etc.

It’s not an unreasonable reaction even if it is offensive to Seven and us as viewers who know Seven.

I’ve been trying to think of a way to put this, but this sums it up perfectly. He could also see himself as trying *help* her, because he is using her human name — for him, it would be like calling Picard, Locutus.

 

[Noname On A Naughty List]

^
THIS.

Even if he turned out being possessed by a Pah Wraith as some joint plot to wreak revenge on the Federation for the Dominion's defeat in the war - as ridiculous as that would be - it would probably still be more engaging than what we'll actually get.

Jack is just a candle in the wind.

 

[BBC 2 6pm]

Jack is just a candle in the wind.

Jack in the (mystery) box. Do candles come in boxes?

 

[Quantum21]

It was all worth it for the conference room scene and Data's positronic duel with Lore.

There are some odd choices in this episode, up to and including a few niggling inconsistencies, some very casual attitudes to crew deaths, and the constipated phasers on the Titan. There there, have a liedown and some fiber and it will be all better.

 

[jaime]

I don’t like the new phasers at all. Too ray gun.

 

[Quantum21]

I don’t like the new phasers at all. Too ray gun.

They've been using Ray guns since 1965