Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 3x08 - "Surrender"

[vulcancicada]

"I was gonna report back to my hand until I got high.
I was gonna take the Titan to school, but then I got high.
Now I'm just debris in space, and I know why (why man?)

'Cause I got high.
Because I got high
Because I got high"

This just made my whole day, I am dying

That was my thought when she cracked into pieces....maybe got too cocky with the victory pre-roll on the bridge...

 

[BBC 2 6pm]

I suggest you go back and rewatch the episode and focus on the part where Data is chewing out the changelings and villains on the ship.

1) The dialogue is hilarious

2) it's very much an evolved version of Data with Lore's Flair for the dramatic.

3) THE NEXT DAMN SCENE is Data explaining how he's no longer just Data bit an amalgam of all three and why he no longer has any interest in death.

I didn't ask for your suggestions, but in any case this line doesn't really work, because everyone (including Data) immediately talks as if he is Data, albeit with new emotions and a bit of flair, etc. If he really does have some Lore in him, shouldn't they be at least a tiny bit more cautious?

 

[Noname Given]

...So, Jack is either a Pah Wraith, or the offspring of Beverly and her grandma's sex candle.

Why not BOTH?

 

[fireproof78]

I didn't ask for your suggestions, but in any case this line doesn't really work, because everyone (including Data) immediately talks as if he is Data, albeit with new emotions and a bit of flair, etc. If he really does have some Lore in him, shouldn't they be at least a tiny bit more cautious?

I don't think so. Data himself says he is something "new" and able to better integrate these different facets of the personalities.

 

[voyager1]

Well we finally got Captain Worf. Wonder if that was an editing error or production error.

 

[Camren]

Last 2 episodes have been mostly trash with a few nice bits added. The pros of this episode were the scenes involving Data/Lore, and seeing the whole crew sitting together again. Everything else was terrible. The duration of the Jack mystery box has gone beyond frustrating now. Typical of Nu Trek to include a mystery box in almost every season, and in almost every instance the conclusion is an anticlimax. I expect no different this time.
And thank goodness for the end of Vadic. Seriously, how is such a campy, cartoonish, moustache-twirling villain like this endearing to anyone? She was absolutely ridiculous. Reminds me of the Chaotica hologram from Voyager only not remotely as entertaining and unlike the hologram, Vadic is supposed to be a serious villain.
By the way, have the writers heard of Laas the Changeling from DS9? Because he could survive in outer space. Guess Vadic missed that class in the Great Link.

 

[jaime]

I didn't ask for your suggestions, but in any case this line doesn't really work, because everyone (including Data) immediately talks as if he is Data, albeit with new emotions and a bit of flair, etc. If he really does have some Lore in him, shouldn't they be at least a tiny bit more cautious?

He also says that he is Data, and the onscreen blue vs red graphic shows the same. Any bits left are… more cosmetic, in a way. Deanna once pointed out (at least, I think she did) that Data always had emotions, they just weren’t necessarily the same, or expressed the same as everyone else’s. Which has always really been there. Now he has ‘human’ emotion. Like a Björk song.

 

[BBC 2 6pm]

He also says that he is Data, and the onscreen blue vs red graphic shows the same. Any bits left are… more cosmetic, in a way. Deanna once pointed out (at least, I think she did) that Data always had emotions, they just weren’t necessarily the same, or expressed the same as everyone else’s. Which has always really been there. Now he has ‘human’ emotion. Like a Björk song.

Right, this is the way I understand it, it is Data. The blue/red thing is crucial, you're right. But I'm just a bit disappointed they went that way, it was the 'safe' option. But this is openly about nostalgia, so maybe safe is the way to go.

 

[jaime]

Last 2 episodes have been mostly trash with a few nice bits added. The pros of this episode were the scenes involving Data/Lore, and seeing the whole crew sitting together again. Everything else was terrible. The duration of the Jack mystery box has gone beyond frustrating now. Typical of Nu Trek to include a mystery box in almost every season, and in almost every instance the conclusion is an anticlimax. I expect no different this time.
And thank goodness for the end of Vadic. Seriously, how is such a campy, cartoonish, moustache-twirling villain like this endearing to anyone? She was absolutely ridiculous. Reminds me of the Chaotica hologram from Voyager only not remotely as entertaining and unlike the hologram, Vadic is supposed to be a serious villain.
By the way, have the writers heard of Laas the Changeling from DS9? Because he could survive in outer space. Guess Vadic missed that class in the Great Link.

Different make of Changeling, as repeatedly established.

Jack is less mystery box, and more mystery onion:
Who is this guy?
Crushers son! Who’s the father?
Picards son! When? Why doesn’t he know?
Well, he knows now, how’s that going to work?
That’s complex. Who is after him?
Changelings? What’s up with that? Why?
Overcharged Picard brain?
Sounds dubious… wouldn’t Picard have had one too?
He’s doing weird shit… why?

Each question is in part answering the last. It is also apparent that it isn’t the usual mystery box, in that answers seem likely to be forthcoming, because every other question gets an answer as we go.

 

[Tuskin38]

I wonder if the 'Get the hell off my bridge' was a Air Force One nod

 

[jaime]

Right, this is the way I understand it, it is Data. The blue/red thing is crucial, you're right. But I'm just a bit disappointed they went that way, it was the 'safe' option. But this is openly about nostalgia, so maybe safe is the way to go.

I think the fact they also addressed the Data simulacrum in s1 is important to this, and the reality is that we’ve been teased Data coming back and then not given Data before. Narratively and audience wise, it is necessary at this point.
It may not have been, had they not screwed up ‘Data’s new daughter’ in S1. (She isn’t really, is she?) Then they could have had band back together, plus kid of the missing member. But at this juncture, Data’s two deaths have left such a sour taste — particularly Nemesis, which spent all that time setting up a return that went nowhere until now — that he had to be back.

 

[Camren]

Different make of Changeling, as repeatedly established.

Jack is less mystery box, and more mystery onion:
Who is this guy?
Crushers son! Who’s the father?
Picards son! When? Why doesn’t he know?
Well, he knows now, how’s that going to work?
That’s complex. Who is after him?
Changelings? What’s up with that? Why?
Overcharged Picard brain?
Sounds dubious… wouldn’t Picard have had one too?
He’s doing weird shit… why?

Each question is in part answering the last. It is also apparent that it isn’t the usual mystery box, in that answers seem likely to be forthcoming, because every other question gets an answer as we go.

Mystery box, mystery onion, whatever it is, it's dragged on for far too long now. I had a feeling that the end of the last episode where Vadic promised answers to resolve this mystery was just a red herring and that we're only going to really find out the deal with Jack in the finale, probably the last 10 minutes. Similar to the ridiculous resolution to the Burn in Disco season 3.

As for Vadec being a different type of Changeling, yes that's been established but if she can reduce herself to a gooey mass and shapeshift into different things, I'm sure she could have turned into the creature Laas was when he was floating through space. But Vadec turning into an ice-block and shattering into tiny pieces like the T-1000 was a cooler end for her I suppose (pun not intended).

 

[arch101]

I wonder if the 'Get the hell off my bridge' was a Air Force One nod

Said to Q and Mr Offenhaus in S1….

 

[Tuskin38]

Said to Q and Mr Offenhaus in S1….

neither of them got sucked out of the ship though.

 

[Markonian]

Well we finally got Captain Worf. Wonder if that was an editing error or production error.

Wait what how where?

 

[Quantum21]

At this point Data is basically a synthetic human with android substraits.

If Picard is a 100% synthetic with 5% android like components...Data is maybe 15%?

I dunno, either way...he's basically human now and is mortal, etc.

Picard is 100% biological android. Data might be similar or less so.

Also, while they chose not to make the Picard golem "superior" in any way, the Data golem may not have those limitations. After all Altan wanted to live a lot longer than the norm.

 

[UssGlenn]

Wait what how where?

he was wearing 4 pips on his uniform

 

[Racefuel]

It is unambiguous in the episode..

Data is Data. This is the same Data that couldn't whistle worth a damn in farpoint, aspired to defeat Moriarty as Sherlock Holmes, dreamed of crows, wanted to experience the totality of life and loved Spot in his own way.

..just..with a bit extra.

"Oh I am mostly myself, I assure you. Albeit with a dash of computational joie de vivre"

For those who do not know French, joie de vivre means "joy of life"

 

[BBC 2 6pm]

I think the fact they also addressed the Data simulacrum in s1 is important to this, and the reality is that we’ve been teased Data coming back and then not given Data before. Narratively and audience wise, it is necessary at this point.
It may not have been, had they not screwed up ‘Data’s new daughter’ in S1. (She isn’t really, is she?) Then they could have had band back together, plus kid of the missing member. But at this juncture, Data’s two deaths have left such a sour taste — particularly Nemesis, which spent all that time setting up a return that went nowhere until now — that he had to be back.

You're not wrong about all that, but in that case I think it could have been a bit clearer in the episode... is this Lore who has been modified to become Data, through his memories? Basically what Picard tried to do to B-4? Makes sense thematically, and I do appreciate Lore shafting himself by being evil, but it's a bit messy.

 

[BBC 2 6pm]

"Oh I am mostly myself, I assure you. Albeit with a dash of computational joie de vivre"

But given past events (and especially given the salience of Changelings), hearing that I would have thought, "now that dash isn't going to take over and murder everyone, is it?"

Especially since we know Lore would have got off on tricking everyone before killing them.