Early Review of Picard Season 3

[fireproof78]

There are plenty of projects which have done this usually to the shows later success, it's about giving a sense of "what this character is" or "what we want to try and do". I beleive the new X-men cartoon is doing the same, either read a selection of comics or watch the 90s TV show and get a "proper feel" of what was so they can do something better but with respect to what came before.

I should also say there's no effigy burning from me! A lot of what I am saying is most definitely in the past evidenced by the rest of my ramble.

But, that evidence means something to you; it means extremely little to me. So, I'm afraid that your examples fall a bit flat, largely because the properties I do consider myself a fan of, even when they supposedly fail, they still have positives (Star Wars Prequels being the biggest example for me).

The other side for me when it comes to characters is that "proper feel" usually means "replicate the past." And I don't want that. I want characters to grow, change, get older, make mistakes, and be able to have a life outside of the 50 minute episode. So when people say "The old so-and-so would never..." I usually take that with a bit of salt, because people change and are not the same, for good or ill. Or personality traits that were less emphasized become more emphasized in different stories. So, I'm always so hesitant to say the feel is not right, nor do I feel that respect is mandated. But, then, I am a extremely weird person that feels that fictional works do not require respect the way people do. It's a hard word for me to suss out.

 

[James Cole]

In Discovery's case, hate is always too strong a word, dissapointment is my main thing with it, and it seems reflected a lot in the steadily dying internet chatter and reviewers over the seasons which you can see on Rotten Tomatoes where the reivews in from professionals in S1 are something like 90+ and S4 it's 20. In Discovery's case it felt like they botched the start. Same with Picard. With so much to draw from and be able to sit people down and go "you need to watch these episodes to get a feel of this character" we have at our disposal now it shouldn't be happening.

Ok, look, people have repeatedly brought up Doomcock in this thread, so hopefully it's fair game for me to talk a bit about him without the risk of getting the thread locked. He's admitted that no one really cares about Star Trek anymore, and he largely stopped making ST content because it just didn't get views and would screw with his YouTube algorithm ratio. YouTube is a fast developing place, and content creators that were big in say 2020 may no longer be in that position today. Doomcock lost a lot of credibility over the constant Kathleen Kennedy Star Wars rumors.

People have given up on even hate-watching DISCOVERY. The only major YouTube players that covered PICARD season 2 episode to episode on the opposition to NuTrek side were Red Letter Media, Nerdrotic, and Popcast. The only way you'd know Midnight's Edge was still talking about ST on their live streams is that the guy who does their timestamps is a ST fan and will note the 2 minutes that came up (whereas in 2020 ME had live reaction streams to almost every PICARD, STLD, and DISCOVERY episode!). Outside the YouTube "haters", many sites like say the AV Club have stopped doing episode to episode reviews. So PICARD season 3, if as I suspect is "that good", will have an uphill battle to garner online attention and word of mouth to drive back viewership.

I mean, in Discovery's case between 05-17 we've had the rise of different storytelling styles, visuals have changed a lot stuff like the Scandi-drama trend, serious changes in how casting is done, equipment has changed enormously as well.

I really wish Star Trek hadn't been gone from TV during this period, so it could have continued to evolve with it, as ENT was doing in seasons 3 and 4. Unfortunately it came back instead during the streaming boom reboot era, with inflated budgets, more attempts to be "of the moment", and less attention to storytelling detail.

 

[gvn2fly]

Ok, look, people have repeatedly brought up Doomcock in this thread, so hopefully it's fair game for me to talk a bit about him without the risk of getting the thread locked. He's admitted that no one really cares about Star Trek anymore /QUOTE]

He talks about it all the time on twitter and as recently as this week has been insulting fans who like the new shows. Strange behavior for someone who says he doesn't care.

 

[James Cole]

Quote button isn't working, so old school...

^^ He means of the wider YouTube audience. ST would drag down his more viewed videos on like Marvel or Star Wars.

And yes, since I'm a supporter of PICARD season 3, I'm included in the derogatory label of being a simp and a c*ck. Gotta love people on the internet!

 

[Tuskin38]

It works, gvn2fly just deleted a quote tag somewhere by accident.

 

[RuleofAcuisition17]

People have given up on even hate-watching DISCOVERY. The only major YouTube players that covered PICARD season 2 episode to episode on the opposition to NuTrek side were Red Letter Media, Nerdrotic, and Popcast. The only way you'd know Midnight's Edge was still talking about ST on their live streams is that the guy who does their timestamps is a ST fan and will note the 2 minutes that came up (whereas in 2020 ME had live reaction streams to almost every PICARD, STLD, and DISCOVERY episode!). Outside the YouTube "haters", many sites like say the AV Club have stopped doing episode to episode reviews. So PICARD season 3, if as I suspect is "that good", will have an uphill battle to garner online attention and word of mouth to drive back viewership.

There are many things I like about RLM, Mike's continued oppiosition to any NuTrek puzzles me a bit because we're very roughly the same generation. (He's 10 years older than me) and has accepted other franchises and things moving with the times a bit. I suspect Picard and Discovery burned him too much and so simply won't tolerate anything else. But it's a single, small thing among everything else they put out and I find highly entertaining.

Its also possible this doom guy was just so hilariously negative the whole time that it turns his audience off because the hate-bias becomes a bit too strong. The fact his threads apparently get locked certainly speaks to this. Nothing but negativity only gets you so far and its usually a short while until the tarmac runs out.

I really wish Star Trek hadn't been gone from TV during this period, so it could have continued to evolve with it, as ENT was doing in seasons 3 and 4. Unfortunately it came back instead during the streaming boom reboot era, with inflated budgets, more attempts to be "of the moment", and less attention to storytelling detail.

A Scandi-drama style short/"Limited Series" show might be interesting to try and do, the mystery of a single ship in the aftermath of some disaster befalling it and it's just focused on the away mission crew trying to discern what's happened by going through logs etc. 6 episodes pretty much in real time.

He talks about it all the time on twitter and as recently as this week has been insulting fans who like the new shows. Strange behavior for someone who says he doesn't care.

Twitter is someone screaming into a hurricane made up of other people screaming into it, so he can probably get away with it there.

 

[James Cole]

There are many things I like about RLM, Mike's continued oppiosition to any NuTrek puzzles me a bit because we're very roughly the same generation. (He's 10 years older than me) and has accepted other franchises and things moving with the times a bit. I suspect Picard and Discovery burned him too much and so simply won't tolerate anything else. But it's a single, small thing among everything else they put out and I find highly entertaining.

To be fair, they did like early PICARD season 2. The only live action NuTrek they haven't covered is SNW. I hope PICARD season 3 will tempt them back.

A Scandi-drama style short/"Limited Series" show might be interesting to try and do, the mystery of a single ship in the aftermath of some disaster befalling it and it's just focused on the away mission crew trying to discern what's happened by going through logs etc. 6 episodes pretty much in real time.

Unfortunately Nick Meyer's proposed Khan on Ceti Alpha V miniseries has been demoted to a podcast

 

[Tuskin38]

To be fair, they did like early PICARD season 2. The only live action NuTrek they haven't covered is SNW. I hope PICARD season 3 will tempt them back.

Mike (I think?) tried to watch SNW, but couldn't get through more than 2.5 episodes.

 

[RuleofAcuisition17]

Mike (I think?) tried to watch SNW, but couldn't get through more than 2.5 episodes.

He watched half an episode, objected to the humour injected into the show and refused to watch more. Trek to him was very much about how mature everyone is in the TNG era. So he wanted his thoughtful, slightly boring, evolved humans. Not people cracking wise. He and Jay joked about making a hashtag campaign called #maketrekboringagain.

Thing is, every workplace I've ever known, and I also know people in very high powered "mature" professions... crack probably the darkest, brutal and wise arse jokes in existence. I can't not see it happening when you're far into deep space.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah. I always find the whole "professionals don't joke" thing so odd to me. I have worked with different types of professionals, mental health, education, retail, and business people. Jokes are common, even during serious situations.

 

[Lord Garth]

He watched half an episode, objected to the humour injected into the show and refused to watch more. Trek to him was very much about how mature everyone is in the TNG era. So he wanted his thoughtful, slightly boring, evolved humans. Not people cracking wise. He and Jay joked about making a hashtag campaign called #maketrekboringagain.

Thing is, every workplace I've ever known, and I also know people in very high powered "mature" professions... crack probably the darkest, brutal and wise arse jokes in existence. I can't not see it happening when you're far into deep space.

His reasons for not liking SNW sound extremely, extremely forced. To the point where I don't buy it. Therefore, I think he's in denial and looking for anything he can grab onto. SNW isn't my favorite, but it does what it sets out to do very well. SNW's aim isn't to remake TNG (like these guys want). It's to make a 2020s version of TOS.

And the people at RLM don't strike me as TOS People. They respect it, sure, but they're really fans of TNG. The '80s and '90s are what's "normal" to them. They need to expand their horizons a little. I was a child in the '80s and a teenager in the '90s, but I don't think those two decades are how everything "should" be. They were conditioned by the times they live in and have a hard time adapting outside of it. That's my perception of them.

I also think that if people need to show off how mature they are, and need to talk about how mature everything should be, they're actually not as mature as they think they are. Someone who's truly mature doesn't need to prove it. People will see it for themselves.

TOS was rarely boring and they cracked jokes all the time. The stereotypical episode ended with them always having a big laugh. RLM is going off of their romanticized version of TNG. I wonder how much of it they've seen in recent years?

If they want more boring, methodical, no frills, no humor content in a "professional" setting, they shouldn't be watching Star Trek. They should be watching Dragnet. The '50s version, the '60s version, it doesn't matter which. It would give them more of what they want in spades. Not a dig at Dragnet. I've seen a lot of if it, and like it, but that's not what I want from Star Trek.

 

[James Cole]

Circling back to the Critical Drinker / RMB video that launched this thread 3 days ago, it is now at 90k views and over 1600 comments. Many people saying they've written off NuTrek and are now willing to give PICARD season 3 a chance.

SNW isn't my favorite, but it does what it sets out to do very well. SNW aim isn't to remake TNG (like these guys want). It's to make a 2020s version of TOS.

I don't like SNW, but that is a fair point.

And the people at RLM don't strike me as TOS People. They respect it, sure, but they're really fans of TNG. The '80s and '90s are what's "normal" to them. They need to expand their horizons a little. I was a child in the '80s and a teenager in the '90s, but I don't think those two decades are how everything "should" be. They were conditioned by the times they live in and have a hard time adapting outside of it. That's my perception of them.

I guess I view TOS the same way. Respect it in that it's the load bearing foundation for the rest of the franchise, and trying to alter the TOS era destabilizes the rest of ST canon. Granted I'd probably have a deeper personal connection to TOS if it had been as easily accessible on TV in the 90s when I was growing up as TNG/DS9/VGR. TOS does have some excellent episodes, and wasn't afraid to swing high and risk falling down. Some of the best Star Trek episodes produced, some of the worst. Well, pre-2017

 

[James Cole]

"I have only a few minor gripes with season 3, nothing major"

"there's nothing insurmountable that would negatively affect your enjoyment of the show. Even Raffi is likable if you can believe that" -- Dave Cullen in the comments section of a live stream today

 

[fireproof78]

I think this is the flip side of the argument. That somehow these new installments threaten to alter the canon. But it can't. So railing against the new installments as somehow violating Trek rings hollow because, at all times, the old stuff is still available. Nothing is changed, overwritten, undermined, destabilized, violated, or radically altered. It just exists along side other stories.

"I have only a few minor gripes with season 3, nothing major"

"there's nothing insurmountable that would negatively affect your enjoyment of the show. Even Raffi is likable if you can believe that" -- Dave Cullen in the comments section of a live stream today

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Ok, look, people have repeatedly brought up Doomcock in this thread, so hopefully it's fair game for me to talk a bit about him without the risk of getting the thread locked. He's admitted that no one really cares about Star Trek anymore, and he largely stopped making ST content because it just didn't get views and would screw with his YouTube algorithm ratio. YouTube is a fast developing place, and content creators that were big in say 2020 may no longer be in that position today. Doomcock lost a lot of credibility over the constant Kathleen Kennedy Star Wars rumors.

The whole 'no one cares about trek anymore' really just means that no one cared about Doomcock's trek content anymore. You can only claim that Discovery is getting cancelled or Kurtzman is fired so many times before people start getting skeptical.

People have given up on even hate-watching DISCOVERY. The only major YouTube players that covered PICARD season 2 episode to episode on the opposition to NuTrek side were Red Letter Media, Nerdrotic, and Popcast. The only way you'd know Midnight's Edge was still talking about ST on their live streams is that the guy who does their timestamps is a ST fan and will note the 2 minutes that came up (whereas in 2020 ME had live reaction streams to almost every PICARD, STLD, and DISCOVERY episode!). Outside the YouTube "haters", many sites like say the AV Club have stopped doing episode to episode reviews. So PICARD season 3, if as I suspect is "that good", will have an uphill battle to garner online attention and word of mouth to drive back viewership.

People have stopped hate watching Modern Star Trek because they found something to like about it. End of story. The respective shows went through the Negative fan reaction crucible that all Trek shows have been going through since TNG. I think fans found a lot more of what they were looking for in SNW and Lower Decks and later seasons of Discovery and that has helped shift fan opinion.

 

[Lord Garth]

Here's a mindfuck for people not in the know. Prior to DSC appearing onto the scene, TOS was my favorite Star Trek series. For a while, when I was burned out on Berman Trek in the early-2000s, TOS was my only Star Trek series. I've been around the whole spectrum, so I understand more viewpoints than most people here.

The "TOS Only" Mode was really just backlash against Berman Trek, which I thought had become stale. I wanted something else, anything else. Or so I thought. The Abrams Films proved I didn't want anything else, just something else. DSC gave me the something else. DSC made me more open to PIC...

... Then I re-watched all of TNG in preparation for PIC. And that drew me right back into the TNG/DS9/VOY world. I hadn't re-watched most of TNG since high school. So here I am all geared up for PIC, and I feel indifferent about SNW which feels like "been there, done that." So I'm looking more forward to the "TNG" show (PIC) than the "TOS" show (SNW).

So you have Discovery and Picard to thank for making me interested in TNG again.

 

[Jayson1]

I actually find Doomcock kind of funny in two-minute doses. Funny in the sense that I'm laughing at him though, not laughing with him.

At least he's discovered a schtick other than just "man in front of a webcam rants about things."

That is kind of how I feel about Ben Shapiro. Shapiro is such a square it's kind of funny watching him rant. He reminds of what the David Spade character from "P.C.U" likely would have become once getting out of college.

 

[fireproof78]

Here's a mindfuck for people not in the know. Prior to DSC appearing onto the scene, TOS was my favorite Star Trek series. For a while, when I was burned out on Berman Trek in the early-2000s, TOS was my only Star Trek series. I've been around the whole spectrum, so I understand more viewpoints than most people here.

The "TOS Only" Mode was really just backlash against Berman Trek, which I thought had become stale. I wanted something else, anything else. Or so I thought. the Abrams Films proved I didn't want anything else, just something else. DSC gave me the something else. DSC made me more open to PIC...

... Then I re-watched all of TNG in preparation for PIC. And that drew me right back into the TNG/DS9/VOY world. I hadn't re-watched most of TNG since high school. So I here I am all geared up for PIC, and I feel indifferent about SNW which feels like "been there, done that." So I'm looking more forward to the "TNG" show (PIC) than the "TOS" show (SNW).

So you have Discovery and Picard to thank for making me interested in TNG again.

I have long held the opinion that the character of Picard became more interesting because of the show Picard. It has given me more of an interest to revisit TNG.

 

[Jayson1]

The whole 'no one cares about trek anymore' really just means that no one cared about Doomcock's trek content anymore. You can only claim that Discovery is getting cancelled or Kurtzman is fired so many times before people start getting skeptical.



People have stopped hate watching Modern Star Trek because they found something to like about it. End of story. The respective shows went through the Negative fan reaction crucible that all Trek shows have been going through since TNG. I think fans found a lot more of what they were looking for in SNW and Lower Decks and later seasons of Discovery and that has helped shift fan opinion.

I agree except Discovery. That show is still pretty bad. But I think lots of people really like the other stuff like SNW,Lower Decks,Prodigy and The Orville. I think many people even liked season 1 of PIcard. Except maybe it's season final. Season 2 though seems to be much hated. So it's basically season 2 of Picard and Discovery most people don't like and even with Discovery

I do think their was some slight improvement in peoples eyes once they moved out of the TOS time period and I also think even people who don't like the show exactly do like some of the characters like Stamets,Lorca and especially Pike in season 2. I don't think I have seen any complaints about any of the cast except maybe Burnham and some awful stuff about Tilly because of her weight.

 

[Wouter]

And, he [RMB] doesn't hate everything else. He likes parts of STLD, and said PRODIGY was great, just that both are limited in impact by being animated.

Does he like Prodigy? I found one video of him talking about Prodigy, back when only the first promo poster (with the characters on it, minus Janeway) was out. He was dismissive in that video, maintaining his apparent usual view that the characters should be profesionnals. Did he change his mind later?