Who are they going to find out in the middle of the ocean to give salvation to?
Somali Pirates?
Is Starfleet Military?
- Thread starter Prometheus59650
- Start date
Somali Pirates?
Who are they going to find out in the middle of the ocean to give salvation to?
They have to secure naval supremacy against Goodwill Industries.
Well, that doesn't really make sense.
So if someone attacks UFP worlds, outposts, starbases or civilians, they shouldn't defend themselves?
If civilian ships happen to respond to alien ships weapons fire by attacking them in turn, that's also armed conflict... so, what? Are the civilian ships at that point no longer civilian and are military ships simply because they defended themselves (as a result of armed conflict initiated by aliens)?
Starfleet doesn't actively start conflicts... other species tend to do this. The only exception was the Dominion (when Sisko mined the entrance to the Wormhole), and even then, it was in response to them sending large convoys of ships for active militarization/arming of Cardassia and eventual preparation for war with the Alpha Quadrant (next to all the espionage and eventual sabotage that the Changelings did leading up to the war in the first 4 years of the Wormhole opening - they started with espionage in the first 2 years of the wormhole opening in fact which also resulted in the Dominion capturing numerous people and ships and destroying New Bajor colony in the GQ - which is how they managed to acquire necessary intel to modify their weapons to bypass AQ ship shields in the first place).
Just because there is armed conflict and SF engages in it for the purpose of defense of the Federation, it doesn't automatically mean SF is a military organisation.
Starfleet would be more akin to a public service organisation such as the police, firefighters, humanitarian aid, science and technology R&D, intelligence, exploration, colonisation, etc. all rolled into one.
Essentially, Starfleet officers are equivalents of civil servants.
EDIT: in the UK, The current Security Service and Secret Intelligence Service (SIS) are still sometimes referred to as MI5 and MI6 respectively, though technically they are no longer 'military' being staffed by civil servants.
In Star Trek, it could be said that Starfleet operated as a public service organisation from the very start.
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Exactly. Starfleet has the legal authority and furthermore no other organization fights to defend the Federation from hostile actors. What is Starfleet then if not the military if it us the organization called upon to engage in combat against external threats?
Except, as @Sci and others note, Starfleet operates with its own set of regulations, court martial for members who violate those regulations and are the only organization who can wage war.
Yep. It cannot be emphasized enough that operating a system of courts-martial that are legally empowered to imprison members of an organization (and we know Starfleet does this) is a very distinct legal power that only a military possesses. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Subway can't imprison you for quitting your shift on the Tuesday afternoon lunch rush, but the Army can imprison you for going AWOL from Ramstein Air Base. So too can Starfleet if you just abandon your posting to the USS Venture or Starbase 375.
But have they ever? Penalized with imprisonment someone actively on a post, for leaving that post without authorization? I don't recall ever seeing that. Plenty in Starfleet have gone to prison, so I agree with your overall point, but it's usually due to actions resulting in death or endangerment, or other gross violations.
I've never really assumed a specific forced duty to serve in their institution. I honestly believed they have something of an open-ended policy of any time you want to resign, you can. Heck, sometimes you can resign, and all it takes is the approval of a serving commander to take you back in at their discretion. It always seemed to me a much looser contract in that one way
And you think the above makes sense? Did the Ukraine armed forces turn into a non military service because they didn't shoot first? Did President Zelensky expect the police and fire service to be the first line of defence to fight Russia? If it looks like military personnel, acts like military personnel, kills like military personnel and court martials like military personnel, guess what, they are military personnel.
Eddington.
Though he also did a number of other things... attacked two Starfleet ships, wounded and killed who knows how many from each, stole a dozen industrial replicators, stole a Bolian cargo ship's freight, used said freight to create biogenic weapons, used biogenic weapons to poison a Cardassian planet, and fired on an Cardassian transport.
I would think what happened with Admiral Leyton would definitively prove that Starfleet was a military. Leyton used Starfleet resources and personnel to instigate a military coup, and would not have gotten as far as he did if Starfleet did not operate as military organization with military grade weaponry.
Eddington, as Farscape One noted. And, more recently, Peanut Hamper from Lower Decks.
And desertion is only one particular charge one could face for violating Starfleet's internal law. Subway can't imprison you for disobeying the orders of your store manager, but we know that Starfleet can imprison you for disobeying orders from a superior officer.
Starfleet may be looser about giving you permission to resign than modern militiaries, but you still need authorization. To continue this analogy, you don't need authorization from your store manager to quit Subway -- that is a right you hold unilaterally. But you do need authorization from Starfleet to resign your commission.
And, yeah, we know that Starfleet officers have a legal obligation to refrain from resigning and obey orders even unto death in certain circumstances. Hence the whole thing about one of the tests for the command track Troi took being the ability to order subordinate officers to their deaths to save the rest of the ship.
Oh, right! The "reserve activation clause" they used to force McCoy back into Starfleet in TMP!
That only raises the question, if Starfleet isn't the Federation's military, why are they engaging in armed conflict in defense of the Federation instead of the Federation's military? For that matter, why are they the only ones who ever engage in armed conflict in defense of the Federation?
Indeed. If someone will offer up the Federation's military I would be happy to say Starfleet is not. Thus far, there is zero evidence put forward in support of that, and plenty to counter it.
Fan 1 Starfleet are the not military
Fan 2 So, who is?
Fan 1
Fan 2 So, who is?
Fan 1
You realize that various militaries around the world take part in all of the above?
Until someone can point to another organization that is the defense arm of the Federation, there is no other way to see Starfleet. Military isn't a dirty word or concept.
ASAB
It should be noted that the current prevailing definition of a "military" is a relatively recent one (any force that is legally empowered to engage in warfare) and even to this day the "Age of Sail" definition is well understood internationally, which typically manifests as not having a "standing army" (infantry, cavalry, armor specifically, fighter aircraft especially jets are uncommon).
I sometimes describe Starfleet as a "national security organisation" that is essentially what the US Coast Guard -- a multi-role, mostly "aid to civil power" orientated organisation -- could easily have ended up as if they had retained their "blue water" capacity rather than the bulk of it being transferred to the Navy.
I sometimes describe Starfleet as a "national security organisation" that is essentially what the US Coast Guard -- a multi-role, mostly "aid to civil power" orientated organisation -- could easily have ended up as if they had retained their "blue water" capacity rather than the bulk of it being transferred to the Navy.
This is an interesting line of thought, since even during the Dominion War there’s never any clear indication that the Federation is involved in conscription/draft, even though it’s mentioned that they’re suffering from a “manpower shortage” during the time of DS9’s “In the Pale Moonlight.”
However, if service to Starfleet was truly that open door, you wouldn’t have Federation ground troops putting phaser blasts through their own feet in order to avoid fighting (“Nor the Battle to the Strong”), you’d just go home or stay home.
Edit: Although, just remembered that Star Trek: TMP does establish that Starfleet Officers do have some sort of service agreement that allows them to be compelled back into service through an "emergency activation clause," since McCoy complains they "drafted me."
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I think a lot of people like me were raised to believe (to some extent) that military = militaristic. The previous thread on this I started helped get me past that.
I am curious as to why you disagree that a utopian society wouldn't have a military. I'm not as (arrogantly) sure as I used to be on practically anything, so I'd love to hear some reasonable discussion on that.
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