Is Starfleet Military?

[Tallguy]

Honestly, this whole issue of whether Starfleet is a military or not is starting to feel like getting into an argument over saying po-tay-to or po-tah-to.

And I'm actually shocked it took me over twenty years to realize that.

I suppose. Oddly, nobody (almost nobody?) seems to object to the things that Starfleet is depicted doing that fall along military responsibilities. The objection has always been to the label.

For myself it's two things. There is the feeling that this is a ridiculous lie that I'm somehow expected to believe. At its most benign it's double talk. (Or cluelesness?) Gene Roddenberry: "Starfleet is not a military." But... They're all naval and armed and they have stripes and everything. GR: "This is tradition." But... They fight the wars! GR: "Well, that's not their primary purpose." Are you KIDDING me? (I'm also arguing that it IS their primary purpose in that in supersedes all others. Studying gaseous anomalies has never taken precedent over defending Vulcan.)

The other thing (and I've seen some of this here) is that there is a strong desire for it not to be a military because there is an opinion that militaries are inherently bad. No good, utopian society like Star Trek would ever have a military. Which I also disagree with. Strongly, actually.

Even in TNG when GR was as in charge as he ever would be on TNG our crew would still patrol borders. They would meet up against rogue Klingons. They would perform war games. And as long as you added Picard's little caveat that they weren't really a military but, y'know, the Borg, then it passed muster.

 

[RuleofAcuisition17]

Honestly, this whole issue of whether Starfleet is a military or not is starting to feel like getting into an argument over saying po-tay-to or po-tah-to.

And I'm actually shocked it took me over twenty years to realize that.

I'll be long long dead in the cold cold ground before I recognise any other pronunciation than Sean Astin's as Samwise in LoTR.

 

[fireproof78]

The other thing (and I've seen some of this here) is that there is a strong desire for it not to be a military because there is an opinion that militaries are inherently bad. No good, utopian society like Star Trek would ever have a military. Which I also disagree with. Strongly, actually

This seems to be the biggest objection. Starfleet can do all these things as long as it isn't called a military. Which is odd, to put it mildly.

 

[1001001]

Really? Again with this?

Welcome to my life.

 

[Tallguy]

Welcome to my life.

Picard: Good. As long as they're (here), they won't hurt anyone else.

 

[JesterFace]

Welcome to my life.

You might be in a temporal loop?

 

[Mojochi]

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck... I'll hedge my bets and not call it a goose.

 

[1001001]

You might be in a temporal loop?

No question about it.

 

[at Quark's]

(I'm also arguing that it IS their primary purpose in that in supersedes all others. Studying gaseous anomalies has never taken precedent over defending Vulcan.)

But it has taken precedence over defending earth. When the Borg attacked Earth in FC, the Enterprise-E went to the Neutral zone and investigated gaseous anomalies and comets there (IIRC).

Curiously, I had the vague impression that Starfleet-is-not-a-military-Picard wasn't unreservedly happy about that, though.

 

[Tallguy]

But it has taken precedence over defending earth. When the Borg attacked Earth in FC, the Enterprise-E went to the Neutral zone and investigated gaseous anomalies and comets there (IIRC).

Curiously, I had the vague impression that Starfleet-is-not-a-military-Picard wasn't unreservedly happy about that, though.

Yes. Very vague.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Yup.

 

[Ottens]

Whether Starfleet is the Federation's military or not, it is too powerful.

 

[fireproof78]

Starfleet is the highest service to the Federation. Naturally it becomes bigger and bigger.

 

[Tallguy]

Whether Starfleet is the Federation's military or not, it is too powerful.

Niiiiiice.

 

[Nyotarules]

Whether Starfleet is the Federation's military or not, it is too powerful.

I agree with this message. IMO the UFP is a benevolent, military dictatorship with replicators to fob off the populace and keep poverty at bay. Its even worse in the 31st century.

 

[JesterFace]

No question about it.

Try inverting the positronic tachyons into negative gammabursts and if that doesn't help adjusting the subspace harmonic to match the neutron flow might help?

Having a deflector dish could help but it hasn't been invented yet....

 

[Sci]

So I got directed to this thread by @fireproof78 and while it's a bit dead I'm going to revive it a bit just to hurl my two cents in.

And shockingly its not going to be a repeat as I've not seen this point in this thread.

The closest real world version of Starfleet we have at the minute on Earth is....

The Japanese Self Defence Forces.

Has military ranks? Check. Officially all SDF personnel are civil servents in the eyes of the Japanese Law, but hold military ranks to be able to integrate with US/NATO forces when needs be.

Sleight of hands definition of its craft? Check. Defiant's a warship, lets not kid ourselves. Officially it's an "escort vessel". In the same way the Japanese have a "Through Deck Destroyer" which they're currently reinforcing the deck plating to carry F-35s for. I'm sure its because they take off vertically they'll call them "Rapid Horizontal Flight Helicopters" or something.

Conducts Scientific research? Check. This is perhaps a bit of a 60s holdover before, in our world, the military industrial complex took over production, where a lot of scientific research was legitimately done by the military in dangerous situations. Same with deep sea diving too. Which covers a good bit of the exploration too. Even today, "military diver" tends to be held in a fairly high regard.

Tends not to shoot first? Check. We see time and time again Star Fleet vessels to not shoot first or otherwise engage in unecessary gunfights. While each Starfleet vessel is technically a walking advertisement for gunboat diplomacy, it's a heavy emphasis on Diplomacy. Japanese ground forces must ask for permission and has to confirm they are definitely under fire before responding.

So no, Starlfeet isn't military. It's a Self Defence Force. This rather neatly covers most of the points raised in this thread and allows for what is basically a bunch of heavily armed civil servants to go about the galaxy doing whatever they want.

Except, of course, that Starfleet operates a system of courts-martial that enforce special law binding upon enlisted and commissioned officers of the organization, whereas we were told in this thread that the Japanese Self-Defense Forces do not do this. To say nothing of all the times Starfleet has been referred to as a military.

But it has taken precedence over defending earth. When the Borg attacked Earth in FC, the Enterprise-E went to the Neutral zone and investigated gaseous anomalies and comets there (IIRC).

... except no, scientific research was not taking precedence over the defense of the Federation in that scenario. In that instance, Starfleet sent one ship on a fake mission (not a real mission of exploration) away from the fighting because the admiralty lacked confidence in that ship's commanding officer, with the option to quickly recall that ship into the fighting if necessary.

I agree with this message. IMO the UFP is a benevolent, military dictatorship with replicators to fob off the populace and keep poverty at bay. Its even worse in the 31st century.

1) There is no such thing as a benevolent dictatorship of any kind. The term is inherently a contradiction; a state cannot be simultaneously dictatorial and benevolent.

2) This is canonically false. We have seen the democratically-elected Federation Council and democratically-elected Federation President issue binding orders to Starfleet, whose officers were legally compelled to obey those orders irrelevant of their personal opinions. This has happened on numerous occasions. We have on three occasions seen Starfleet officers who believe in and recognize the legal obligation of civilian control of the military act to thwart illegal conspiracies to subvert democratic governance (The Undiscovered Country, "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost," Into Darkness).

 

[XCV330]

Welcome to my life.

Starfleet wasn't military until Janeway murdered Tuvix. You can tell because the angle of the bridge used to be funny. Not funny ha-ha but funny peculiar, in the same way it's peculiar that no one in the Federation has any money.

 

[The Wormhole]

When the Borg attacked Earth in FC, the Enterprise-E went to the Neutral zone and investigated gaseous anomalies and comets there (IIRC).

Actually, no. The official reason the Enterprise was sent to the Neutral Zone in FC was to be on the guard in case the Romulans decided to take advantage of Starfleet being occupied with the Borg and launch an attack of their own, as explained here:

PICARD: We're not going.
RIKER: What do you mean, 'We're not going'?
PICARD: Our orders are to patrol the Neutral Zone, in case the Romulans decide to take advantage of the situation.
TROI: The Romulans?
DATA: Captain, there has been no unusual activity along the Romulan border for nine months. It seems highly unlikely they would choose this moment to start a conflict.
CRUSHER: Does Starfleet feel we need more shakedown time?
LAFORGE: Captain, we've been out in space for nearly a year now. We're ready! The Enterprise-E is the most advanced starship in the fleet. We should be on the front line.
PICARD: I have gone over all this with Starfleet Command. Their orders stand. ...Number One, set a course for the Neutral Zone

The stuff about comets and other stellar phenomena was what their sensor sweep of the Neutral Zone, as detailed here:

RIKER: We've finished our first sensor sweep of the Neutral Zone.
PICARD: Oh, fascinating. Twenty particles of space dust per cubic metre. Fifty-two ultra-violet radiation spikes and a class two comet. Well, this is certainly worthy of our attention.
RIKER: Captain, why are we out here chasing comets?
PICARD: Let's just say that Starfleet has every confidence in the Enterprise and her crew. They're just not sure about her Captain. They believe that a man who was once captured and assimilated by the Borg should not be put in a situation where he would face them again. To do so would introduce an unstable element to a critical situation
RIKER: That's ridiculous! Your experience of the Borg makes you the perfect man to lead this fight.
PICARD: Admiral Hayes disagrees.

Admittedly, the whole thing shows Starfleet, or at least Admiral Hayes were operating under some very flawed logic. Even if Picard really couldn't be trusted in the situation, they could have just relieved him of command and turned the Enterprise over to Riker temporarily. Especially since it was in fact under Riker's command the Borg were defeated last time anyway.

 

[at Quark's]

^ I know. I was just making a joke.