On the signing day of United Federation of Planets, is Archer an admiral

[Happy Hopping]

so on Aug. 12, 2161, they do the signing of United Federation of Planets, is Archer a captain or admiral at the time?

because I recall in an episode of Star Trek: Enterprise, they have a scene that they go into the future, and Archer witness either himself or his staff do the charter of the United Federation of Planets

 

[FederationHistorian]

Archer is probably a fleet captain or commodore at the signing. I lean towards fleet captain, as we’ve seen the commodore uniform worn by Admiral Forrest in “First Flight” and its the same as the admiral's uniform. The main difference is that commodore has one pip, while admiral has three.

As Archer had 8 pips – double the pips a captain usually has – the only thing I can think off that would warrant such a rank is fleet captain. Which ties in with being months removed from the Romulan War, and Trip's line in the episode about Archer being the man they were waiting to see.

 

[The Wormhole]

Archer was clearly a Captain in TATV, with Reed noting at the ceremony that Archer was up for promotion.

As Archer had 8 pips

I'm pretty sure that's just his dress uniform displaying his rank on both sides of his uniform. Like a modern day naval Captain has four stripes on each shoulder epaulette, that's still considered to be four stripes, not eight.

 

[Happy Hopping]

see, that's what I thought too. I don't have the Blu-ray of Star Trek Enterprise but I remember that scene.

So just finishing off reading Star Trek Section 31: Control by David Mack, pg. 197, he said on the date of signing, Archer is an admiral:

On his right was the aisle to the exit; to his le sat Admiral Ko. Several
meters in front of them, on a massive elevated circular stage, Admiral
Jonathan Archer sat at a small table backed by three alien dignitaries—T’Pau
of the Confederacy of Vulcan, Gora bim Gral for the United Planets of
Tellar, and Ferrinesh ch’eru of the Andorian Empire—and Lillian Hayes, a
human woman sent on behalf of the Alpha Centauri Concordium.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm pretty sure that's just his dress uniform displaying his rank on both sides of his uniform. Like a modern day naval Captain has four stripes on each shoulder epaulette, that's still considered to be four stripes, not eight.

Yep.

IIRC, all Admirals in ENT have their rank pips on both sides, even in their normal duty uniforms.

 

[FederationHistorian]

I'm pretty sure that's just his dress uniform displaying his rank on both sides of his uniform. Like a modern day naval Captain has four stripes on each shoulder epaulette, that's still considered to be four stripes, not eight.

Ah, okay. Thanks for clarifying.

see, that's what I thought too. I don't have the Blu-ray of Star Trek Enterprise but I remember that scene.

So just finishing off reading Star Trek Section 31: Control by David Mack, pg. 197, he said on the date of signing, Archer is an admiral:

That would mean Archer acceptation the promotion to admiral just before heading out for his speech and subsequent signing of the Charter.

 

[Happy Hopping]

who offer him a promotion? I don't recall the other guy (forgot his name) said anything about a promotion on that scene

 

[The Wormhole]

So just finishing off reading Star Trek Section 31: Control by David Mack, pg. 197, he said on the date of signing, Archer is an admiral:

The novel continuity chose to ignore TATV, or more accurately interpreted it as a historically inaccurate holodeck program which allowed them to do the things they wanted to do. So, they had Archer already be an Admiral at the signing. Novels aren't canon, though, so as far as canon is concerned, Archer was still a Captain at the signing.

I don't recall the other guy (forgot his name) said anything about a promotion on that scene

I got that a bit mixed up. It was actually Hoshi who said he was up for a promotion to Admiral, though Reed and Mayweather didn't believe he'd go through with it.

HOSHI: (to Travis) Have you given an answer to Captain Stillwell yet?
TRAVIS: I've asked him for a little more time, until Captain Archer decides what he's going to be doing.
REED: I'll bet you a month's pay he'll be on the bridge of a new ship. He won't be able to resist one of those warp seven beauties.
HOSHI: I've heard he's already been tapped for admiral.
TRAVIS: Malcolm's right. They'll never keep him behind a desk.

 

[FederationHistorian]

who offer him a promotion? I don't recall the other guy (forgot his name) said anything about a promotion on that scene

T'Pol mentioned an Admiral Douglas at the beginning of TATV, who was waiting on Archer to sign off on Enterprise being decommissioned. It was probably the same guy that offered the promotion.

 

[Happy Hopping]

good memory, people, thank you

 

[Timofnine]

I’m not sure what rank Archer was but I have a painting of when he signed the charter. Perhaps we can tell what rank he is by the rank pips?

 

[Happy Hopping]

so 4 pin on ea. side means what exactly back then?

 

[Timofnine]

Well, Admiral was represented by 3 pips on each side in the Enterprise era. Archer had 4 pips on each side. For example, here is *Admiral* Forrest:

So Archer could be Fleet Admiral, the rank above Admiral?

 

[fireproof78]

If Memory Alpha is to be believed still a captain.

 

[Timofnine]

I do know that Archer was still commanding the Enterprise NX-01 refit up until one week before his speech at the signing of the Federation charters. The Enterprise was being decommissioned after the Romulan war and reluctantly Archer was taking his ship home to be mothballed on his way to this event. This does not necessarily make him a Captain at this time though, Archer could have been Fleet Admiral based on the Enterprise, having been coordinating Starfleet against the Romulan aggressors from the field. Archer never seemed to me like an Admiral who would be stuck in an office on Earth ‘pushing pens’ away from the frontline - he would be out there in the midst of the action.

 

[Sumire]

If Memory Alpha is to be believed still a captain.

Does Memory Alpha accept TATV as unquestionably canon? As in, nothing in the events the holoprogram portrays was recreated from imperfect human memory? I can believe, in the holoprogram, he was still a captain seeing as how, in it, almost nothing had changed from 2155 to 2161.

 

[fireproof78]

Does Memory Alpha accept TATV as unquestionably canon? As in, nothing in the events the holoprogram portrays was recreated from imperfect human memory? I can believe, in the holoprogram, he was still a captain seeing as how, in it, almost nothing had changed from 2155 to 2161.

On screen is treated as canon. Whether it is 100% accurate is of course debatable.

 

[Timofnine]

Does Memory Alpha accept TATV as unquestionably canon? As in, nothing in the events the holoprogram portrays was recreated from imperfect human memory? I can believe, in the holoprogram, he was still a captain seeing as how, in it, almost nothing had changed from 2155 to 2161.

There is also the possibility that Malcolm Reed manipulated Starfleet records as a part of his duties in Section 31, either downplaying or overplaying Archer’s rank. Allegedly, Section 31 were somehow part of the original Federation Charters. Reed could have influenced Archer in some way, making his friend and past Captain sign and seal this above top secret Section 31 clause in to the Charters?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Allegedly, Section 31 were somehow part of the original Federation Charters.

IIRC, Section 31 was authorized by the charter of Earth Starfleet, not the Federation Starfleet. The two are not the same organization.

 

[fireproof78]

There is also the possibility that Malcolm Reed manipulated Starfleet records as a part of his duties in Section 31, either downplaying or overplaying Archer’s rank. Allegedly, Section 31 were somehow part of the original Federation Charters. Reed could have influenced Archer in some way, making his friend and past Captain sign and seal this above top secret Section 31 clause in to the Charters?

I mean, it's not completely unheard of. Earth had just gone through a massive and devastating post apocalyptic horror only curtailed by the survivors uniting together to build something better. I would imagine that trust was not something easily brokered between the multiple parties, much less when they discover aliens are real and visit Earth, much less even more so when they discover that not all alien powers are friendly. Section 31 is probably a hold over that worked it's way in to Starfleet Intelligence, allowing it a measure of legitimacy, while still keep a very suspicious eye towards the rest of the galaxy.