On the signing day of United Federation of Planets, is Archer an admiral

[Hopeful Romantic]

Now why do you insult one of the Addams Family's most memorable characters by comparing it with that... abomination?

I have the greatest respect for the Addams Family family, including Thing. One of my most favoritest shows. Years after that one, I was lucky enough to be on set and watch Felix Silla playing Twiki on "Buck Rogers."

The reference to TATV as "The Thing" comes from our dear fellow member @pookha, too seldom seen here nowadays, who has a most amazing talent for pragmatic pithiness as well as thoughtful analysis. She coined it, and it worked perfectly for me.

"Abomination" fits very well too, considering the abominable writing and character assassination going on in that...well, you know.

 

[Oddish]

Does it have to though? its not like the problem was that it was set in 2161. It was that nothing was explained as to why it appeared like nothing had changed. Not even a line that they were going through a lot of hair dye to cover greying hairs.

If they weren't going to change the cast or their appearances, the logical solution was to not change the time. It's not like any relevant 2161 event was actually shown to us: Riker said "End program" before they could.

I don’t know who slipped in the line of the single pipped Columbia helmsman being a lieutenant during the Klingon Augment virus arc, but that person is a genius. And gets around the issue regarding promotions for two generally overlooked bridge officers after they did not get their promotions early on in S4. Its supposed to be a different era anyway.

It's a sad thing when we have to use what was probably a costuming error to explain a painful inconsistency like that. My preferred explanation is that Riker, designing his holosimulation, added in characters who had been promoted and transferred years before, because he wanted to interview them while cosplaying as the chef.

I don’t have a hard time believed Trip went out into the field as a Section 31 agent twice; first in 2155 during the Romulan war, and again in 2161 during the Federation founding ceremony.

It would be a good explanation for why he and T'Pol didn't become a thing... he was out on assignment. Long distance relationships rarely do well.

"Abomination" fits very well too, considering the abominable writing and character assassination going on in that...well, you know.

That thing. I know.

 

[FederationHistorian]

If they weren't going to change the cast or their appearances, the logical solution was to not change the time. It's not like any relevant 2161 event was actually shown to us: Riker said "End program" before they could.

We saw Archer and Trip have the same respective hairstyles in the early 2140s that they were still wearing in early 2150s. Its not that big a deal if the hairstyles of 2154 were still in use in 2161. The only conclusion that can be drawn is that they don’t really change their hairstyles all that much in the future.

Besides, it entirely possible that they still adopted their personal appearances from “Twilight” anyway. Its not like we ever saw a 20+ year jump with them like with the crews of TNG, DS9 and VOY. Even SNW recently gave us a 20+ jump with a greying Pike wearing the Monster Maroons.

It's a sad thing when we have to use what was probably a costuming error to explain a painful inconsistency like that.

As far as errors go, its inoffensive and does not break with continuity at all. They should just make it canon already.

 

[fireproof78]

Address what happened to Trip and T’Pol’s relationship. The two of them just giving up out of the blue, after hinting that something would happen between them, makes no sense

Yes, please address this. Moving it years in to the future and then giving it a brush off after the emotional struggle in the last freaking episode.

 

[Oddish]

One of the founding moments in Federation history... "Nope. End program".

A romance that's been building for years is just tossed aside.

A fan favorite character dies a death that makes Tasha Yar's look meaningful.

Viewers complained because one character on "Voyager" wasn't promoted... TATV doubles down hard on that.

It's almost like they were actively trying to piss us off, isn't it?

When Jonathan Frakes, whose model for doing Trek shows (on both sides of the camera) seems to align with Judy Hops' theme song ("I wanna try everything...") later states that he probably should have skipped this one... that's telling.

 

[Sci]

One of the founding moments in Federation history... "Nope. End program".

A romance that's been building for years is just tossed aside.

A fan favorite character dies a death that makes Tasha Yar's look meaningful.

Viewers complained because one character on "Voyager" wasn't promoted... TATV doubles down hard on that.

It's almost like they were actively trying to piss us off, isn't it?

No. It's more like, they were sad they were losing their show and losing Star Trek after almost twenty years, they decided to try to do a goodbye to the entire franchise that would let them have a nostalgic trip back to their TNG years, and in doing so didn't do the work of giving ENT itself a proper sense of resolution for its characters and didn't realize what they had done until after it was over.

It's a series of very bad creative decisions, but I think those decisions were the result of mental blind spots rather than any active malice.

When Jonathan Frakes, whose model for doing Trek shows (on both sides of the camera) seems to align with Judy Hops' theme song ("I wanna try everything...") later states that he probably should have skipped this one... that's telling.

Which is too bad. I love Frakes and have no objection per se to him being in the ENT series finale. He's like Star Trek's beloved uncle. The problem wasn't him, it was that the episode didn't use him properly.

 

[mithril]

the nice thing though is that since that episode was a holodeck program, they can retcon the events pretty well just by going with "the holodeck programmers screwed up" and/or "Riker's involvement in advising the holodeck characters changed the outcome"
personally i'd be inclined to go with the first one. it wouldn't be hard to stick a line into one of the newer post-TNG period shows like lower decks or prodigy (or heck, even Discovery) about a holodeck program about the 22nd century enterprise and its highly inaccurate last installment.

 

[Oddish]

Which is too bad. I love Frakes and have no objection per se to him being in the ENT series finale. He's like Star Trek's beloved uncle. The problem wasn't him, it was that the episode didn't use him properly.

Yes. The episode could have been turned into a decent piece of fanservice (and a great way of letting Frakes get another Trek show under his belt) with a few modifications...
1. Don't make it the series finale.
2. Keep it in 2155.
3. Don't kill any main character. An action like that deserves an episode focused on it, not the visiting VIP.

 

[Sci]

Yes. The episode could have been turned into a decent piece of fanservice (and a great way of letting Frakes get another Trek show under his belt) with a few modifications...
1. Don't make it the series finale.
2. Keep it in 2155.
3. Don't kill any main character. An action like that deserves an episode focused on it, not the visiting VIP.

Honestly, I think it still could have been a good series finale with a main character death if it had just been executed better. Too much of the dramatic focus of the episode was on Riker instead of the ENT characters; important character developments occurred on an arbitrary basis (why had Trip and T'Pol broken up after building to a relationship for so long?); and the death of Trip occurred against an enemy the audience had no investment in on the basis of a plot device that felt insufficiently urgent as to warrant Trip's sacrifice (how often had Archer been taken hostage before?). Fix those elements and "These Are the Voyages..." might have been really lovely.

 

[FederationHistorian]

One of the founding moments in Federation history... "Nope. End program".

A romance that's been building for years is just tossed aside.

A fan favorite character dies a death that makes Tasha Yar's look meaningful.

Viewers complained because one character on "Voyager" wasn't promoted... TATV doubles down hard on that.

It's almost like they were actively trying to piss us off, isn't it?

When Jonathan Frakes, whose model for doing Trek shows (on both sides of the camera) seems to align with Judy Hops' theme song ("I wanna try everything...") later states that he probably should have skipped this one... that's telling.

Its not like its a hard episode to fix. Even moving Trip’s scene with Riker from the end of the episode to after Archer tells T’Pol to talk to chef would be an improvement. Movie magic today can probably delete Riker and Troi from several scenes altogether, and add the NX-refit schematics on a few panels.

No. It's more like, they were sad they were losing their show and losing Star Trek after almost twenty years, they decided to try to do a goodbye to the entire franchise that would let them have a nostalgic trip back to their TNG years, and in doing so didn't do the work of giving ENT itself a proper sense of resolution for its characters and didn't realize what they had done until after it was over.

Berman said that he was trying to show the founding of the Federation as they had not gotten to it yet and he had to rush to do it becuase the show got cancelled.

Of course, he didn’t need Trip’s death or the Shran subplot or Riker & Troi to do that.

 

[Oddish]

Foreknowledge of the Federation (courtesy of Daniel's, Future Guy, the Suliban, or whoever) was one of Enterprise's worst ideas.

 

[RuleofAcuisition17]

This. As there is another Federation founding ceremony episode being omitted from the discussion – the S3 finale “Zero Hour”.

While Daniels does say that it is seven years into the future, near the end of the episode, the date entered into T’Pol’s log is February 14, 2152. Not 2154 as its supposed to be.

Daniels states they're "A little more than 7 years into the future" which is supposed to leave it a little open ended as during S3's filming they were still gunning for at least 7 seasons worth of show, only to be told during season 4 that they were getting canned. So doesn't really count, and would still have things lined up fine with the 2161 signing date.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Daniels states they're "A little more than 7 years into the future" which is supposed to leave it a little open ended as during S3's filming they were still gunning for at least 7 seasons worth of show, only to be told during season 4 that they were getting canned. So doesn't really count, and would still have things lined up fine with the 2161 signing date.

This still misses the point. That, that error provides leeway in that both Archer was a fleet captain and an announcement of the formation of the Federation occurred in 2159. Since its not clear if that erroneous log entry is due to the residual effects of T’Pol’s trillium use, or a temporal event that sent them a couple of years back in time.

Just like how a Declaration by United Nations was signed in 1942 three years before the UN’s official founding. Its sensible to think that a Declaration by United Federation of Planets was signed in 2159 two years before its founding in 2161. And that’s what’s actually being seen in both "Zero Hour" and TATV.

Of course, this could move the TATV timeline up a couple of years if interpreted this way.

- Shran faked in death in 2156, not 2158
- T’Pol is referring to her one night stand with Trip in December 2153 in terms of the relationship being over for six years
- Talla was born in 2153, not 2155, and thus Shran is her stepfather and not her actual father.

 

[Sci]

Just like how a Declaration by United Nations was signed in 1942 three years before the UN’s official founding. Its sensible to think that a Declaration by United Federation of Planets was signed in 2159 two years before its founding in 2161. And that’s what’s actually being seen in both "Zero Hour" and TATV.

To be clear, "the United Nations" referred to in the 1942 declaration is not the United Nations organization that exists today. Rather, "the United Nations" was the formal term for the Allied powers during World War II. The United Nations organization that was founded after the war was named after that alliance.

I always assumed that the first draft of the S4 finale was set in 2155 as an immediate follow-up on the subplot from "Demons"/"Terra Prime" about the founding of the Coalition of Planets, and that the signing ceremony was originally going to be the founding of the Coalition -- hence Troi's line about "this will lead to the Federation." I figure Berman and Braga decided to change the setting to 2161 so as to see the founding of the Federation but failed to update that line. (And failed to update anything else about the characters' lives to account for the passage of time.)

 

[FederationHistorian]

To be clear, "the United Nations" referred to in the 1942 declaration is not the United Nations organization that exists today. Rather, "the United Nations" was the formal term for the Allied powers during World War II. The United Nations organization that was founded after the war was named after that alliance.

I mean, that was the idea I was going for. The Federation being named after a human/Vulcan/Andorian/Tellarite alliance calling itself the Federation. And the Coalition of Planets was analogous to the League of Nations.

I always assumed that the first draft of the S4 finale was set in 2155 as an immediate follow-up on the subplot from "Demons"/"Terra Prime" about the founding of the Coalition of Planets, and that the signing ceremony was originally going to be the founding of the Coalition -- hence Troi's line about "this will lead to the Federation." I figure Berman and Braga decided to change the setting to 2161 so as to see the founding of the Federation but failed to update that line. (And failed to update anything else about the characters' lives to account for the passage of time.)

I mean, Troi’s line still makes sense if applied to a signing of a Declaration by United Federation of Planets.

But that line also makes sense as suggesting that the Federation will grow to what Riker and Troi recognize as the Federation. Although its obvious why it comes off awkwardly in the moment.

 

[Dodd]

captain