How Would You Change "Deep Space Nine"?

[Magic Maik]

Jake's moon actually belongs to the Noh-Jay Consortium!

While his father's jealously knocking around a dusty space station, scurrying around fixing minor annoyances, with Quark and Odo's constant shenanigans in the background, Jakey boy's living on his own Moon in the lap of luxury.

Girls (and boys, whatever you like...) feeding him grapes as he has photographs taken, lying back on a chaise longue that he's rented from his very own father's office. Another one to add to his Federation/Star Fleet chaise longue collection.

Every time Jake comes onto the station to play a little dabo, complete a bit of business at Garak's fashion emporium (That Nog is financing to take sector wide) or pop in to visit his hard working not-even-wagie father, he'll slip him a little tip, a gold-pressed-latinum bonus into Benjamin's pocket to keep him sweet and whisper some words of advice into his shell like... "Benji baby, I've got one word for you: Weapons. ' No one ever went broke selling weapons."

 

[JirinPanthosa]

But you're wrong to. TNG's evolved people are still as you say people. It's that they live in a different society, just as we do from societies past. We don't accept (well, some of us anyway) that women are property, other races are to be conquered and enslaved, gays are an aberration, the poor should be sterilized, that children should work in factories in lieu of getting an education, etc etc. Follow that social evolution 400 years into the future. They're not going to talk and think like us. Orville did a great bit this season about how killing animals for food makes them murderers in their time, and the notion of doing so makes them feel awful, never mind the legal ramifications. A viewer can say that they just want to turn their brain off and watch a TV show, and I can say I want to keep half of it on and watch a futuristic TV show. Both are valid entertainment choices. But don't tell me that the former viewer knows anything more about "people" than the latter.

I don't see the idea of an aspirational Federation as being at odds with having to be at war. The flip side of having an idealist vision is needing to do what's necessary to defend it. And DS9 ends on that note, ending the war because Odo by his experience convinced the female changeling that the Federation would not seek revenge.

DS9 was just as idealistic as TNG, just less naive. And probably showed a more realistic path to overcoming social evils than TNG, that we can become better without being as sterile and emotionless as humans are shown in TNG.

What would I change? Get rid of Vic for one, maybe having him be a one shot character for Paper Moon. I'd make the Dominion more like a totalitarian Federation like it was originally pitched. Not just three races, all different races operating under the tyranny.

Definitely get rid of "Bashir is genetically modified".

 

[Arpy]

I don't see the idea of an aspirational Federation as being at odds with having to be at war.

Maybe because we're too used to the concept of war. And the easy out of "well our side is reasonable but we can't be blamed if other people are black-hatted instigators." This is fiction and the choice to create an eeevil Dominion and a good war is at odds with whatever else they might have dramatized. WWII: In Space!!! was fun had a lot of legitimately interesting stories, but it's still WWII: In Space!!!. That's was a choice and one you can judge as such. Ratings were dropping, VOY gave us boobs and escapism, DS9 gave us war and mood. I wonder what might have been if.

The flip side of having an idealist vision is needing to do what's necessary to defend it. And DS9 ends on that note, ending the war because Odo by his experience convinced the female changeling that the Federation would not seek revenge.

I'm sorry, but it ended on a cop-out. It ended with Odo linking the same way he had countless times prior to no effect but now, what, he really really means it – the Federation are nice guys?

Or, some fans point to the genocidal bioweapon the Space Gestapo came up with. Okay, then that too is a creative choice that, again, we can judge. "Only through Nazi strength can an ideal society survive." Uh-huh.

DS9 was just as idealistic as TNG, just less naive. And probably showed a more realistic path to overcoming social evils than TNG, that we can become better without being as sterile and emotionless as humans are shown in TNG.

Right, we can overcome social evils by not overcoming social evils because doing makes us sterile and emotionless.

What would I change? Get rid of Vic for one, maybe having him be a one shot character for Paper Moon.

Agreed. If Ira loved Japanese culture we'd have gotten half a dozen middling episodes and one really good one with a samurai hologram. ...maybe woulda preferred that actually.

I'd make the Dominion more like a totalitarian Federation like it was originally pitched. Not just three races, all different races operating under the tyranny.

In my head canon there are more species in the Dominion specializing in different areas, even as there is overlap between them – no monocultures. The Karemma, [Species 2], and [Species 3] are the Dominion's leading economic powerhouses. The Vorta are the diplomats, but beneath them are the [Species 4] support staff who also want to supplant the Vorta one day, even though it means slavery through genetic manipulation. The top bioengineers are [Species 5] or [Species 6], whose bitter cutthroat rivalry is legendary but really only exists because neither want to suffer the fate of other species that have fallen out of favor – like [Species 7], whose military tech couldn't compete with the ascending Karemma and who had to transition to transportation and logistical support. Still a better fate than [Species 8], who the Dominion permitted to be conquered by their neighbors [Species 9] when [9] needed more cheap labor for their burgeoning food production industry.

Definitely get rid of "Bashir is genetically modified".

Agreed. The ban is silly, backward, incongruous with TNG's "Unnatural Selection" and DS9's "Distant Voices," and his modifications were and unfair advantage that should have gotten him kicked out of Starfleet. Also, nice that he didn't turn into Khan or Patrick but apparently everyone else did. And convenient that no adversary species used genetically modified characters either.

 

[somebuddyX]

I think my changes are in two categories. Ones I think should have happened and could have happened in the circumstances of producing the show, and ones that would have been cool in some alternate universe version of the show where producing wasn't an issue and everything aligned. You've all probably heard these before.
The first:
End the war sooner/change Season 7 around. I'm not fond of everything after the first two episodes. Maybe a wrapping up period of post-war stories, like governance of Cardassia, what happened to the Jem'Hadar. etc.
Only one sequel to "Crossover" or none at all.
No special effect death for Jadzia. She just straight up gets stabbed to death by Dukat with a knife.
No connection between Sisko's mother and the Prophets. He's special by who he is, not some birthright that's kinda gross.
Sisko just dies in his confrontation. There is no rescue by the Prophets, nor hinting that he'll come back.
Come up with a better idea for "Rejoined" than that rejoining ban, which they'd ignored before and then ignored right after. Maybe don't do allegory and just have Dax hook up with someone of the same sex but it's frowned upon in their society? Or if the other person is a Trill have her as like an conservative who personally thinks it's wrong or something, as opposed to the entire culture.
Create establishing shots of Ferengi marauders at DS9 for "The Nagus" and reuse them whenever Zek's there.
The second.
Get rid of the cave set. Shoot some interiors just in normal warehouses or something.
No Sao Paulo renamed to Defiant or no Sao Paulo at all. In this fantasy world they didn't blow up the Enterprise-D bridge set but moved it out and put in storage, and they could have used that or borrowed the Voyager or Enterprise-E sets. I think it would be kickass if they could have borrowed the Enterprise-E bridge set for Admiral Ross' ship.
Ezra Dax. Play it the exact same way. Have Worf confused about his feelings. Have Ezra hook up with Bashir.
Or, Ezri Dax and Jake. I thought those two would have been cute together and it would have put Sisko in an interesting relationship with his mentor turned bestfriend turned son's girlfriend.
Do "One Little Ship" in the earlier seasons and have more fun with it.
Have a proper crossover with TNG for TNG Season 7/DS9 Season 2. Or if you want to go full Arrowverse crossover, have TNG and DS9 do ""Journey's End/The Maquis" as a crossover that also introduces Voyager characters. Have Picard/Sisko together again.
T'Rul stays around in Season 3 and beyond. They could have kept Martha Hackett around even while she was on Voyager anyway. It could bring more of a personal look to Romulans, like what having Martok or Garak or Dukat did. Have her screwed over in Season 7 by Sloane instead of Cretak.
United Alpha Quadrant. Have other races joining the alliance, like the Ferengi or the Gorn. This one's extreme but someone in another thread mentioned having the Tamarians charge into battle yelling "Picard and Dathon at El-Adrel!" or something. That's probably too much but I found it hilarious.
Some or all of TNG cast at Worf's bachelor party. Frakes and Levar were around the lot doing directing at the time and I love the idea of them two in their uniforms just hanging out in scenes, doing the Nog dance etc.
Do the Odo/Kira confrontation post "Sacrifice of Angels" onscreen.
Kill Rom in "Sacrifice of Angels." As well or in place of Ziyal? ....
Keep Alexander around on the station/show and have him have a B-story with Jake and Nog that's like "In The Cards/Progress."
Even this one is ridiculous, and I guess they kinda did the idea of having a story on a completely different ship with "Valiant," but either have an episode where's the adventures of some Alpha Quadrant ship stuck in Gamma when the the minefield went up, or it's a Maquis survivors adventure episode with Frakes, Michelle Forbes, and Robert Duncan McNeill as Nick Locarno, under the command of Pressman or Maxwell. It's Bizarro TNG.
Bring back the Andorians, Tholians and Gorn. Gorn should always just be a dude in a suit like Bobby Clark. How is Morn any less ridiculous than a Gorn? Bring in the cat guy from Trek IV or the blind guys from Trek IV and VI. Bring in testicle knees from Trek VI. They don't have to be in major roles but maybe there's a Catmiral onscreen or something.

 

[Oddish]

And convenient that no adversary species used genetically modified characters either.

Aside from the Dominion.

 

[StarMan]

Triple Ira's budget across S5-7 under the condition he puts extra effort into plotting out the Prophet storyline well in advance.

And never let me see a re-used CGI shot in a major space battle again (I'm looking at you, WYLB -- that greatest space battles compilation halfway through the final showdown slipped in footage of the Klingons from STVI and Garak from the previous episode! ).

 

[Oddish]

Have Ezra hook up with Bashir.

Only if they could put enough into it to make us actually care. When I saw them kiss for the first time, my thoughts were something like "yeah, fine, get it over with."

Or, Ezri Dax and Jake. I thought those two would have been cute together and it would have put Sisko in an interesting relationship with his mentor turned bestfriend turned son's girlfriend.

Actually, I like those two better than E/B. Only thing the latter had going for it was that Bashir deserved something after getting dumped for a Ferengi. But E/J would at least have made things awkward for Sisko.

Some or all of TNG cast at Worf's bachelor party. Frakes and Levar were around the lot doing directing at the time and I love the idea of them two in their uniforms just hanging out in scenes, doing the Nog dance etc.

Absolutely agreed. It's just dumb that they didn't do this anyway.

Keep Alexander around on the station/show and have him have a B-story with Jake and Nog that's like "In The Cards/Progress."

If they were going to have Alexander return, he DOESN'T lose his pacifism and 75 of his IQ points.

it's a Maquis survivors adventure episode with Frakes, Michelle Forbes, and Robert Duncan McNeill as Nick Locarno, under the command of Pressman or Maxwell.

Or maybe Sisko's pal from the original episode. And while it would be kind of a coincidence to have both RDM characters join the Maquis, I like that fate for Lacarno better than the one I envisioned for him. (i.e., he winds up suicidally depressed after his expulsion and drinks himself to death in some cheesy dive or other.)

 

[Arpy]

Aside from the Dominion.

Nowhere near Bashir’s or Khan’s/augments’ abilities despite millennia of genetic engineering expertise.

 

[Oddish]

Nowhere near Bashir’s or Khan’s/augments’ abilities despite millennia of genetic engineering expertise.

The Jem'Hadar were designed for ferocity, controllability, and disposability. Emphasis on the latter. With three days from emergence to deployment in combat, not a lot of opportunity for actual training. But because of the simplified logistics (the only thing they require is their drug), the Founders can put a whole lot of them into play.

 

[Arpy]

The Jem'Hadar were designed for ferocity, controllability, and disposability. Emphasis on the latter. With three days from emergence to deployment in combat, not a lot of opportunity for actual training. But because of the simplified logistics (the only thing they require is their drug), the Founders can put a whole lot of them into play.

And middle aged Sisko and petite Kira can drop them like anyone else.

 

[Oddish]

Well, Sisko was trained in Klingon martial arts by Curzon Dax, and Kira's a former Bajoran freedom fighter. Again, training.

 

[Farscape One]

The Jem'Hadar do have a couple things that gives them an edge.

First, their weapons... if it doesn't kill you immediately, you bleed to death because of the anticoagulant it leaves behind.

Second, they wilk suicide run you just to make a point. I sometimes wonder which they care less for... their own lives or those of their opponents.

Just look at the speech a First gives before a fight, the one in "TO THE DEATH" thst Omet'iklan recites. That kind of all-in mentality gives them a level of ferocity that is hard to combat.

Sisko said it best in "HOMEFRONT"... 'The Jem'Hadar are the most brutal, efficient fighters I have ever seen." He's right.

 

[kkt]

I would actually go along with that for DS9. it's just dumb that they were introduced in "Inquisition" and ONE EPISIDE LATER, comes "In the Pale Moonlight", where Sisko basically out of the blue becomes Section 31 himself. If we have S31 to do deep intrigue, why is a station commander and part time religious icon doing it?

Would it have helped "In the Pale Moonlight" if Sloan or someone else from Section 31 was in a scene near the beginning pushing Sisko to bring the Romulans into the war By Any Means Necessary? Much of the rest of the episode could remain the same. The log that gets erased, contacting Garak, Garak going more high stakes than Sisko had in mind, even punching Garak at the end.

 

[Oddish]

That might work. The solution I like better is that the two episodes are reversed. Ideally, Sisko uses Bashir as a go-between with Garak in "Pale Moonlight", since the two are known to be friends. That way, when S31 shows up, they have decided that...
1. Recent events show that they need a permanent operative on the station.
2. Sisko is too visible, and Garak is untrustworthy.
3. Bashir, because of his fondness for spy games, his genetic enhancement, and his loyalty to the Federation, is the perfect choice.

See how neat it all comes together?

 

[Arpy]

Well, Sisko was trained in Klingon martial arts by Curzon Dax, and Kira's a former Bajoran freedom fighter. Again, training.

Jem Hadar’s whole lives are combat and training. They should be stronger than Vulcans, faster than Augments, and with said training easily able to take down the best of Starfleet marines, let alone Sisko or Kira. Otherwise, the millennia-old Dominion could have used droids; their whole deal is domination. Unless you’re suggesting the humans’ 20th century eugenic technology is superior to 24th century Dominion genetic engineering technology. Convenient that.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Maybe because we're too used to the concept of war. And the easy out of "well our side is reasonable but we can't be blamed if other people are black-hatted instigators." This is fiction and the choice to create an eeevil Dominion and a good war is at odds with whatever else they might have dramatized. WWII: In Space!!! was fun had a lot of legitimately interesting stories, but it's still WWII: In Space!!!. That's was a choice and one you can judge as such. Ratings were dropping, VOY gave us boobs and escapism, DS9 gave us war and mood. I wonder what might have been if.



I'm sorry, but it ended on a cop-out. It ended with Odo linking the same way he had countless times prior to no effect but now, what, he really really means it – the Federation are nice guys?

Or, some fans point to the genocidal bioweapon the Space Gestapo came up with. Okay, then that too is a creative choice that, again, we can judge. "Only through Nazi strength can an ideal society survive." Uh-huh.



Right, we can overcome social evils by not overcoming social evils because doing makes us sterile and emotionless.

That's a pretty weak argument. Deep Space 9 has overcome social evils. But children still cry when their parents die. They can relax and enjoy themselves. Watching the 'boob tube' and mourning your dead friends are not 'Social evils'. DS9 still has a moneyless society on Earth, still has the good natured human race.

TNG showed us the way to overcome social evils was to give up our basic humanity. DS9 showed we can overcome them while keeping our humanity intact.

And no, the only way to have a utopian society is to defend a utopian society. Saying otherwise is just naive, it opens the door for any dictator or demagogue to take over. It's a paradox, and it's an unfortunate fact about reality you can't wish away.

The Nazi weapon was not required for the victory in the slightest sense. Excepting that convincing the Founder to trust that they would honor their end and cure it was part of what ended the bloodshed. Without the 'Nazi weapon' the military victory would have happened all the same, only there wouldn't have been a risk of every Gem Hadar in the universe berserking to the last man.

 

[Farscape One]

And no, the only way to have a utopian society is to defend a utopian society. Saying otherwise is just naive, it opens the door for any dictator or demagogue to take over. It's a paradox, and it's an unfortunate fact about reality you can't wish away.

Precisely.

 

[Oddish]

Jem Hadar’s whole lives are combat and training. They should be stronger than Vulcans, faster than Augments, and with said training easily able to take down the best of Starfleet marines, let alone Sisko or Kira. Otherwise, the millennia-old Dominion could have used droids; their whole deal is domination. Unless you’re suggesting the humans’ 20th century eugenic technology is superior to 24th century Dominion genetic engineering technology. Convenient that.

There's a lot about them, and the Vorta, that's hard to explain. Most notably that they can walk, talk, and fight at mere days of age. That would require incredible intelligence, but they don't seem smarter than any other lifeforms. This suggests that all of their skills are genetically encoded rather than learned, so maybe it's hard for them to go beyond their basic skill set. Not impossible, though, given that while Worf was able to stomp on rank and file JH in the episode where they were in that prison camp, their "drill sergeant" was superior in skill to him. However, the drill sergeant's honorable behavior suggested that he was more independent than most of his type. Variations within the breed, maybe?

 

[Farscape One]

We should also keep in mind that by the time Worf was fighting Ikat'ika, he was already hurt badly with at least several bruised ribs due to the 7 Jem'Hadar he already beat. Even a warrior as good as Worf will have trouble fighting a fully ready Jem'Hadar First while wounded.

I do agree that his yielding at the end shows another facet of the Jem'Hadar we rarely saw... they have some codes of honor regarding personal combat within their value system.

 

[Doctorossi]

Shimerman, Grodenchick, Eisenberg and Combs are perfection and delivered consistently brilliant performances, but… kill most of the Ferengi episodes. They seem written to/for a completely different audience than the bulk of the show and, I’m sorry, Ira, but the characters’ simplistic-to-absurdity single-minded money obsession doesn’t feel like an “everyman” story; it feels like cartoon villainy at best and anti-semitism when I’m being less generous.

Also, I could’ve always gone for more Martok.