Exactly so. I'd prefer a full reboot of TOS because recapturing that sensibility is very difficult to do.
Let's continue TOS
- Thread starter Voodoowoman2
- Start date
I thought STC did a excellent job of hybriding TOS and TNG sensibilities as did some of the Phase II stories with Cawley but I think they would have needed higher production values to really capture TOS.
I was very disappointed that Enterprise failed utterly to capture the frontier spirit of TOS.
The very essence of fanfic rebooting, by injecting elements that have no business being there.
You can’t recapture the TOS vibe if you insist on changing it. It’s essentially what you find in Pocket Books’ Trek novels.
As far as being political what makes a lot of TOS’ stories great is their timelessness—exploring topics that remain timelessly relevant. A common thread in TOS was those with power exploiting the powerless—thats timeless. Racism—also timeless. War by proxy—timeless. Making war “clean”—still relevant. The corruptive influence of unlimited power—always relevant.
I remember reading one of the early comics where Kirk calls Rand, "Honey," and the crew commits genocide because the plant life forms tried to eat him. Good times.
Exactly. TOS is 60s viewpoint, warts and all. If you wish to continue it then you have to accept the worldview that was of the time it was made. Otherwise, please reboot it. I would welcome a reboot to it because TOS is timeless and a reboot takes zero, zip, nada, zilch away from that.
Continue TOS? Depends on what you mean. A down to the studs recreation of Star Trek as it was in the 1960s? No. A new show set with in the continuity of TOS that reflects the 2020s the same way TOS reflected the 1960s? Sure, why not? Star Trek should never be an insect trapped in amber. There are still stories to be told in the 2260s
Are they? Not much canon or continuity to "rewrite" in the timeframe SNW is set. I've enjoyed they way they've expanded on what little info we have and the new tidbits they've added.
I think "TOS" and "five-year mission" aren't necessarily one and the same.
TAS is the closest you'll get to "the last two years of TOS". It came out in the early-'70s and had TOS writers. Emphasis on "the closest". Anything else would be like SNW, Continues, New Voyages, Bantam Books, Pocket Books, and Marvel/DC/IDW. Meaning some are closer than others, but they'll never be exactly like TOS. Getting "the last two years of TOS" is impossible. You'd need to go into a parallel universe where TOS ran from 1966 to 1971.
On the other hand, if you don't want "the last two years of TOS" but just "the last two years of the five-year mission", it's possible to do that. Tie-in media's been doing it since "Spock Must Die!" It would just be something distinct from TOS.
SNW is okay, but I'm not a die-hard fan of it. I think it's overrated. Of the new shows, I prefer DSC and PIC. (Yes, I know I just offended almost everyone's sensibilities here in one way or another!) So if I saw an SNW-style continuation of TOS, my thoughts would likely end up being, "That was nice, but I'm not in a hurry to see any more."
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Here is a quote from Doug Drexler when he was approached several years ago to do vfx for Star Trek Continues.
STC MEMORIES- DOUG DREXLER-"HOW I BECAME THE SHIP BUILDER" (2013)
"I swore I'd never do another Star Trek fan film. Vic approached me over a year ago to do shots for STC, but I politely declined. Even after I shot a cameo for this upcoming episode, I remained steadfast. Fan films can often be trying affairs. Plus, I don't have a lot of free time. I've been very fortunate and work almost constantly. Like I needed to pile this on top of everything else.
What made me change my mind? Truth be told, I haven't seen anything since the original series that looks feels as much like TOS as this does. Vic makes an awesome Captain Kirk, and manages to evoke Shatner without feeling slavish. If you squint just a little, there are times you would swear it was Shatner. Even Dorothy was impressed. Vic came by the house to grab some ADR. I already knew I couldn't be convinced. I watched my cameo. Pretty cool... but no. Even my own vanity was not enough.
It was Michael Forest. Damn him. I'm a big Mike Forest fan. One of my favorite performances in a genre piece ever was given by Michael. It was in an Outer Limits episode from 1965, shot by Conrad Hall, called "It Crawled Out Of The Woodwork". IMO, it stands as an iconic performance in horror and science fiction. I've never forgotten it and I watch it every so often when I need inspiration. Mike thinks I'm nuts. I knew I HAD to do this show.
I would do all the ship shots for the episode proper. But there was one caveat: no motion control style shots, no wild maneuvers, no enhancing the ship with surface detail (aztec'ing) that was never there, no raking light, lots of fill, grain, and etc. In other words, just as if was being done in 1970. The new footage needed to be able to cut into the established stock shots. It was the 4th season. The studio gave them more money.
That was it. I wanted to shoot the ship as if it was on stage at Anderson, half a century ago. So I figured out the lenses and duplicated the lighting setup from all those years ago. I even went one crazy step further than anyone else... I shot a CG model that was 11.5' long. Who does that? Everybody builds their ship at 947'. At that gigantor size it's never going to behave like it did when we first fell in love with it. The difference in the lens distortion alone makes it a non-starter.
Also, why go to such extremes to make the costumes and sets look just like they did 50 years ago and then shoot the ship shots like 2013? It didn't make sense. Especially if Mike and Vic were going to so strongly conjure TOS. I mean, why "fix it"? Obviously it was wonderful just as it is, otherwise there would have been no Star Trek phenomenon. So clean it up, sweeten it enough to feel newer, maintain the style, have Justman and Roddenberry in your ear.
So, my resolve crumbled like the proverbial cookie."
It must be noted that at some point I think Drexler did step away from STC because of creative differences I believe. But I can’t really say at what point.
I know my own enthusiasm for STC waned increasingly as they did stories TOS would never have done and injected evermore tie-ins to post TOS productions that simply would never be on the radar of TOS’ creators back in the day. The most obvious sop was the massive tie-in in their two-part finale where they revisited the repercussions of Gary Mitchell from WNMHGB, brought in the Romulan commander from “The Enterprise Incident” and wrapped the whole thing tied into TMP. You can’t do all that and still feel like authentic TOS. It’s more like an adaptation of a Pocket Books’ novel.
And it was written by an author I know, have met, and generally respect: Robert J. Sawyer. But his inner fanboy was showing more than a little bit with this effort.
STC was at its best when doing things you could believe could have been done back in the day. It went off the rails when doing things you know couldn’t or wouldn’t have been done in TOS. The one indulgence STC did that was fascinating was their Mirror Universe episode “Fairest Of Them All.” Yeah, no way TOS would have revisited that back in the day, but every fan was dying to know what could have happened when Mirror Kirk went back to his own universe.
My favourite STC episodes: “Lolani,” “Fairest Of Them All” and “Come Not Between The Dragons”
My most disappointing episodes: “The White Iris,” “Embrace The Winds” and “To Boldly Go” Parts 1 and 2
STC MEMORIES- DOUG DREXLER-"HOW I BECAME THE SHIP BUILDER" (2013)
"I swore I'd never do another Star Trek fan film. Vic approached me over a year ago to do shots for STC, but I politely declined. Even after I shot a cameo for this upcoming episode, I remained steadfast. Fan films can often be trying affairs. Plus, I don't have a lot of free time. I've been very fortunate and work almost constantly. Like I needed to pile this on top of everything else.
What made me change my mind? Truth be told, I haven't seen anything since the original series that looks feels as much like TOS as this does. Vic makes an awesome Captain Kirk, and manages to evoke Shatner without feeling slavish. If you squint just a little, there are times you would swear it was Shatner. Even Dorothy was impressed. Vic came by the house to grab some ADR. I already knew I couldn't be convinced. I watched my cameo. Pretty cool... but no. Even my own vanity was not enough.
It was Michael Forest. Damn him. I'm a big Mike Forest fan. One of my favorite performances in a genre piece ever was given by Michael. It was in an Outer Limits episode from 1965, shot by Conrad Hall, called "It Crawled Out Of The Woodwork". IMO, it stands as an iconic performance in horror and science fiction. I've never forgotten it and I watch it every so often when I need inspiration. Mike thinks I'm nuts. I knew I HAD to do this show.
I would do all the ship shots for the episode proper. But there was one caveat: no motion control style shots, no wild maneuvers, no enhancing the ship with surface detail (aztec'ing) that was never there, no raking light, lots of fill, grain, and etc. In other words, just as if was being done in 1970. The new footage needed to be able to cut into the established stock shots. It was the 4th season. The studio gave them more money.
That was it. I wanted to shoot the ship as if it was on stage at Anderson, half a century ago. So I figured out the lenses and duplicated the lighting setup from all those years ago. I even went one crazy step further than anyone else... I shot a CG model that was 11.5' long. Who does that? Everybody builds their ship at 947'. At that gigantor size it's never going to behave like it did when we first fell in love with it. The difference in the lens distortion alone makes it a non-starter.
Also, why go to such extremes to make the costumes and sets look just like they did 50 years ago and then shoot the ship shots like 2013? It didn't make sense. Especially if Mike and Vic were going to so strongly conjure TOS. I mean, why "fix it"? Obviously it was wonderful just as it is, otherwise there would have been no Star Trek phenomenon. So clean it up, sweeten it enough to feel newer, maintain the style, have Justman and Roddenberry in your ear.
So, my resolve crumbled like the proverbial cookie."
It must be noted that at some point I think Drexler did step away from STC because of creative differences I believe. But I can’t really say at what point.
I know my own enthusiasm for STC waned increasingly as they did stories TOS would never have done and injected evermore tie-ins to post TOS productions that simply would never be on the radar of TOS’ creators back in the day. The most obvious sop was the massive tie-in in their two-part finale where they revisited the repercussions of Gary Mitchell from WNMHGB, brought in the Romulan commander from “The Enterprise Incident” and wrapped the whole thing tied into TMP. You can’t do all that and still feel like authentic TOS. It’s more like an adaptation of a Pocket Books’ novel.
And it was written by an author I know, have met, and generally respect: Robert J. Sawyer. But his inner fanboy was showing more than a little bit with this effort.
STC was at its best when doing things you could believe could have been done back in the day. It went off the rails when doing things you know couldn’t or wouldn’t have been done in TOS. The one indulgence STC did that was fascinating was their Mirror Universe episode “Fairest Of Them All.” Yeah, no way TOS would have revisited that back in the day, but every fan was dying to know what could have happened when Mirror Kirk went back to his own universe.
My favourite STC episodes: “Lolani,” “Fairest Of Them All” and “Come Not Between The Dragons”
My most disappointing episodes: “The White Iris,” “Embrace The Winds” and “To Boldly Go” Parts 1 and 2
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Leave TOS as a period piece and do some other era of the PU.
I must be one of the very few who would have liked to see a TMP era followup. You wouldn’t have to change a thing (visually) then try to insist thats the way it always looked like.
Okay, you could just tweak the uniforms, but thats it. But, please, no monster maroons.
But I’m sure they’d still fuck it up somehow.
The challenge is always the sensibility and the technology. Technology makes things go faster, and to quote the great Phil Tippet, "The Computer wants to fuck you." So, people get caught up in trying to make things better, rather than taking a step back and regarding a project from the sensibility of the 70s. Especially if you not necessarily aware of the history behind the design, i.e. you grew up loving the show but not necessarily with the process. So, you have to take Doug's view of "I'm doing this from the 70s and the studio gave us more money," rather than the quicker way, and the idea that we can do this easier with today's technology.
As a means of illustration the YT channel Corridor Crew recreated the Star Wars trench run in one day using current tech:
That's the temptation that has to be battled against. And it takes a certain level of self-awareness and humility and not letting your pride get in the way of doing it better.
As a means of illustration the YT channel Corridor Crew recreated the Star Wars trench run in one day using current tech:
That's the temptation that has to be battled against. And it takes a certain level of self-awareness and humility and not letting your pride get in the way of doing it better.
Agreed. I don't think that was what the fans really wanted either, but that's just my opinion.
Unfortunately, that new show ended up not looking and feeling remotely like TOS, hence being in 'continuity' with it was just an afterthought. As someone stated above, DSC had all the feel of someone wanting to do a generic 2020's sci-fi show but added 'Star Trek' to the title to get people to actually watch it. Now, judging the show on its own merits is a different story. But judging it based on the idea that it's supposed to take place ten years before TOS? Fail.
This is essentially why these 'prequels' or 'visual reboots' or other such nonsense don't work for me (aside from the various continuity errors and characters who don't look or act like their TOS counterparts.) If you watch a ship from DSC or SNW fly around, go to warp, come out of warp, fire weapons, etc., they are pretty much indistinguishable from any ship doing the same things in Star Trek: Picard. If someone who had never watched a single episode of any Trek series were to watch an episode of DSC (from the first two seasons) and then watch an episode of PIC, I bet they'd be hard pressed to tell the difference as to what time period each show takes place in, because it all looks the same. But then you would get accused of making something look 'dated' if you try to mimic the '60's production values to create a show that ostensibly takes place in that same continuity. Nor do I think, as I mentioned above, that anyone really wants that anyway.
Back in 2009, J.J. Abrams made a creative choice to base his movies on the TOS cast, but in an alternate universe that wasn't beholden to 50 years of 'canon' and continuity, or that had to look or feel like that '60's TV show it branched out from. For better or worse, he made the right choice. And while those films don't really seem to be going anywhere at the moment, CBS chose to not follow his advice and instead felt the need to shoehorn their generic sci-fi shows into places where they didn't need to be in the first place.
I would love to see it.
Cool. I still think you're in the minority. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Story of my Trek life. Always been in the minority on that.
As strange as this sounds, since DSC didn't look anything like TOS, I forgot about the TOS look after while because I wasn't being constantly reminded of it. And I really like the show. Moreso than all of the series Rick Berman ever made put together, actually. Not an exaggeration. So I looked the other way and turned a blind eye. (Unlike with ENT, where I definitely did NOT turn a blind eye.) But I'm glad that they moved DSC into the 32nd Century because not only do I think the show works better there, but I don't have to turn that blind eye anymore.
SNW is a different story. They tried to make it look more like TOS, so I'm reminded of it whenever I see it. Some of it works, some of it doesn't, IMO. But it sticks out in my mind more. SNW also takes place on the same ship as TOS and has a lot of the same characters, so I'm more likely to think, "Wait a minute... " And I don't like the series as much, so I'll turn more critical. I treat it like a reboot, regardless of what Paramount says. But I'll say this: even though I don't like SNW as much, that doesn't mean I don't like it at all. There are lots of worse things to watch than SNW. I like it better than ENT and prefer it over the Abrams Films. It's not terrible, but I won't act it as if it's something it's not. I don't see it as a natural prequel to TOS, just a reboot that will lead into some hypothetical version of TOS.
SNW is a different story. They tried to make it look more like TOS, so I'm reminded of it whenever I see it. Some of it works, some of it doesn't, IMO. But it sticks out in my mind more. SNW also takes place on the same ship as TOS and has a lot of the same characters, so I'm more likely to think, "Wait a minute... " And I don't like the series as much, so I'll turn more critical. I treat it like a reboot, regardless of what Paramount says. But I'll say this: even though I don't like SNW as much, that doesn't mean I don't like it at all. There are lots of worse things to watch than SNW. I like it better than ENT and prefer it over the Abrams Films. It's not terrible, but I won't act it as if it's something it's not. I don't see it as a natural prequel to TOS, just a reboot that will lead into some hypothetical version of TOS.
I love SNW. I knew even before I saw it that it would become my favorite Trek series of all time. And it has. 
How exactly is TOS a "period piece"?
It's definitely a product of it's time. And nothing will alter that about the show, Any new adventure of those characters will be products of their times as well. Tell a story with TOS characters doesn't mean pretending it 1966.Wikipedia said:
