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Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

What grade would you give the Marvel Cinematic Universe? (Ever-Changing Question)


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Whereas a production that tolerates laziness or carelessness in one aspect may well tolerate it in others. The parts aren't in competition with each other, they're all supporting the same structure. So it's best if they're all as strong as they can be.
I think this is the biggest place where I will push back. I don't automatically assume it's lazy or careless that they went with the dramatic license over believability. As @Reverend notes, real life, especially court rooms, are incredibly dry, dull, boring affairs. They are not fun, stuffy, and incredibly uncomfortable. So, when a production "gets some wrong" in terms of inaccuracy I'm going to err on the side of dramatic license and give grace in that instance.

Obviously this is a mileage will vary thing. But, I just hate the assumption of they're just lazy and don't care, when I think they do care but do have deadlines to keep in mind. Maybe that's too generous, but I prefer that to laziness.
 
I don't automatically assume it's lazy or careless that they went with the dramatic license over believability.

I never said "automatically." I said "may well." I don't see how you can possibly get "automatically" out of "may well." If you've paid any attention to my posts on this board, you should know that I loathe blanket generalizations. Every case needs to be considered individually, and nothing is always true of everything. I'm speaking of trends and tendencies, of best practices and the ways they can be fallen short of. Not have to be, but can be.


As @Reverend notes, real life, especially court rooms, are incredibly dry, dull, boring affairs.

It's misunderstanding verisimilitude to think it requires exactly duplicating real life. The word literally means "resemblance to truth." The goal is to make something feel realistic enough that the audience can buy into it. The goal is to find an effective balance between realism and the needs of drama -- to bend reality only as much as the story needs and no further. Storytelling is the art of illusion, like stage magic. The goal is not to present something utterly realistic, but to present something unrealistic in such a way that the fakery isn't obvious. It's unrealistic that a magician can levitate their assistant, but if you hide the wires well enough, the levitation looks real anyway. Sloppy writing is like sloppy magic where the wires are obvious, where the illusion fails.

The problem with the trial scenes in DD season 2 was not that they weren't absolutely realistic -- it was that they weren't even slightly close to realistic. It was that they were so preposterously, laughably unrealistic that they insulted the viewers' intelligence and pulled us out of the story. Which was jarring in a series that mostly committed itself to naturalism and a grounded style.
 
The goal is to find an effective balance between realism and the needs of drama
100% agreed.
I never said "automatically." I said "may well." I don't see how you can possibly get "automatically" out of "may well." If you've paid any attention to my posts on this board, you should know that I loathe blanket generalizations. Every case needs to be considered individually, and nothing is always true of everything. I'm speaking of trends and tendencies, of best practices and the ways they can be fallen short of. Not have to be, but can be.
And that's fair. My approach is, to generalize, be gracious. If something doesn't work in the verisimilitude then I will look at the why of it, and try to reorient in a way to appreciate what the artist was trying to do. I don't find it disrespectful or insulting if they take a shortcut and I happen to notice it.
 
My approach is, to generalize, be gracious. If something doesn't work in the verisimilitude then I will look at the why of it, and try to reorient in a way to appreciate what the artist was trying to do. I don't find it disrespectful or insulting if they take a shortcut and I happen to notice it.

And that's fine in those cases where it isn't taken too far. Again, I'm not generalizing. I'm talking about the specific cases where it is taken too far, to the point that it's not easy to forgive. Nobody's perfect, but good creators always strive to do better. It's not wrong to call them on their shortcomings; indeed, genuinely good creators want to be held to a high standard, because they hold themselves to a high standard.
 
And that's fine in those cases where it isn't taken too far. Again, I'm not generalizing. I'm talking about the specific cases where it is taken too far, to the point that it's not easy to forgive. Nobody's perfect, but good creators always strive to do better. It's not wrong to call them on their shortcomings; indeed, genuinely good creators want to be held to a high standard, because they hold themselves to a high standard.
If they are striving to do better then I can't very well call them lazy.
 
And again you miss my point by generalizing. The point is that some do it better than others, and it's not at all wrong to criticize those efforts that fall short, because how else are they ever going to get better?
I am in agreement with you.
I so want to jump into this conversation but know better and will spare all of you. Merry Xmas, everybody!


So you like shoes that have some sole? :)
You have no idea how much I love shoes.
 
I doubt anyone expects realism when watching a crime drama or legal drama on TV. We all know investigating a crime as well as a person's trial is something that can take months or even years in real life as opposed to the surprisingly quick time it takes on the network primetime dramas. Doesn't stop those shows from being enjoyed by a large amount of people.
 
I doubt anyone expects realism when watching a crime drama or legal drama on TV.

I don't expect it, but I want it, and I welcome it when it comes. There's nothing wrong with hoping things will turn out better than you expect them to.

After all, a good story defies the audience's expectations. If the audience doesn't expect realism, then a story that makes the extra effort to be at least somewhat realistic will be a pleasant surprise. It will rise above the pack, in a way that stories that merely pander to expectations will not.

Ever heard of Alfred Hitchcock's The Wrong Man (1956)? It's a fact-based crime/courtroom drama that Hitchcock chose to make in a pseudo-documentary style, breaking with his usual suspense and action and melodrama and sticking to strict realism as much as possible. Critics at the time had a mixed reaction, but it was a hit with audiences and is widely acclaimed today, because it defied conventional expectations and dared to do something different than a run-of-the-mill courtroom drama, or than Hitchcock's usual approach. The fact that it was difficult to make a movie that was both realistic and engaging was, presumably, exactly why Hitchcock was interested in tackling the challenge. And the critical consensus is that he pulled it off.
 
I doubt anyone expects realism when watching a crime drama or legal drama on TV. We all know investigating a crime as well as a person's trial is something that can take months or even years in real life as opposed to the surprisingly quick time it takes on the network primetime dramas. Doesn't stop those shows from being enjoyed by a large amount of people.
Same. My expectations are lower and I don't expect realism. Is it nice? Yes.
 
Interesting debate. I think the key for courtroom dramas is that there should be enough "correct" that it creates a legitimate feel for being in the courtroom, especially among those who have first hand experience while not directly replicating the experience. A show is being done for drama, suspense, comedy, etc-- and we don't want to wade through long hours of tedious procedures. This is similar to portraying writers in fiction. We don't want to see long scenes of someone sitting at a keyboard, or writing and re-writing drafts of course, but it always takes me out of a scene when we see a writer typing away at what is obviously a first draft and then just packing it up and sending it away to the publisher. Or an actor playing a musician who doesn't even know the basic fingering position for what is being played. Or the surgical scene in which the doctor doesn't even know how to hold their instruments properly. You want to get enough details write so that the story and acting appear grounded in the "real world" and then you can play around with the rest.
 
Breaking the fourth wall pulls the "tight universe" rug out from under the MCU--which (for a time) was supposed to be their own, "real" universe mirroring that of the audience (in general trappings) . Employing the old comedy gag of breaking the fourth wall--as you point out--goes beyond, or prevents the suspension if disbelief, because its existence is applicable to the rest of the franchise's stories. That kind of comedic trope worked in MAD magazine (its creators, subject of satires or Alfred E. Neuman interacting with the readers), Warren's Creepy & Eerie, or Archie comics (very routine in that line), but it failed in superhero comics (generally found in the Silver Age more than any other), where a character addressed the readers when they were supposed to be invested in the superhero universe as "real"

I mean, Deadpool's one of comics' few post-90s genuine hit original characters. Fourth-wall comedy doesn't suit a serious story, but not every story needs to be serious. If the same universe has room for everything from Lee/Kirby Tales of Asgard to Frank Miller's Daredevil, there's room for fourth-wall breakage.
 
Or, on the DC side, Ambush Bug regularly breaks the fourth wall--most recently in the Suicide Squad. Does that mean we should be unwilling to suspend our disbelief in other DC comics stories? Are we not supposed to take The Dark Tower "seriously" because Stephen King is a character in the story, and written as the creator of the other characters? Of course not. We've been living in the age of post-modernism for over 60 years now. Kirby and Lee wrote themselves into a Fantastic Four comic very early in the series run--She-Hulk is only building on that tradition. We all know that it is a fictional universe so it is not going to break anyone's illusion if they are forced to actually think about the craft of writing during one episode of one series. Well, plus whatever the hell they are going to do in Deadpool 3.
 
Interesting debate. I think the key for courtroom dramas is that there should be enough "correct" that it creates a legitimate feel for being in the courtroom, especially among those who have first hand experience while not directly replicating the experience. A show is being done for drama, suspense, comedy, etc-- and we don't want to wade through long hours of tedious procedures.

Exactly. It's the same as writing hard science fiction, or anything else touching on a particular field of knowledge or expertise -- you include enough accuracy to give it a flavor of believability so that the liberties you take for the sake of fiction are easier to buy into. At least, you nod toward how things should work so the savvy reader knows you did your homework and aren't just ignorant of your subject matter. (Like giving the Flash physically impossible superspeed, but nodding to physics by saying he also has a forcefield that protects him from burning up from friction -- or in the case of the 1990 TV series, acknowledging the friction damaging his clothes and using that to justify giving him a supersuit.)

It's like being a con artist. If you want to convince the mark, you need to give your con game a semblance of truth, make it close enough to reality that it seems credible and eases their skepticism. (The first non-canonical Ferengi Rule of Acquisition I coined for Star Trek prose fiction was "A near-truth is an economical lie.") Of course, the audience for fiction knows it isn't real, so there's no intent to deceive, but it's still easier for the audience to buy into if it has that feel of credibility and doesn't put all the work of suspending disbelief on their shoulders. Your job as the writer is to make that suspension easier for them, to meet them halfway or further. It doesn't matter if some viewers are more tolerant and willing to accept anything, because others are more demanding, and you can't win over the whole audience unless you win over the hard sells.


This is similar to portraying writers in fiction. We don't want to see long scenes of someone sitting at a keyboard, or writing and re-writing drafts of course, but it always takes me out of a scene when we see a writer typing away at what is obviously a first draft and then just packing it up and sending it away to the publisher.

It's always astonished me how incredibly inaccurate the depictions of writing and filmmaking are in books and films/TV. That's the one thing where you know the creators know how it works, yet they routinely depict it in a way that isn't even close to reality. I get the need to simplify for the audience, but most of the time, it's not just simplified, it's a complete fantasy. Like, say, getting an entire movie written, filmed, and released to theaters in the span of a couple of weeks. Or having a character go through an entire elaborate action scene with stunts and special effects in real time without realizing they're on a film set.

(The first spec novel I ever wrote, which never sold, was called On Location and was about the first movie made in outer space -- I optimistically projected a Mars colony mission taking place right about now. I wanted to prove you could depict the filmmaking process accurately and still make it a good story, so before I wrote the novel, I wrote the whole screenplay for the movie, worked out a plausible shooting schedule, and plotted the novel around it. I reread the manuscript some years later, and though the screenplay was awful, I thought the novel still kind of held up.)
 
I mean, Deadpool's one of comics' few post-90s genuine hit original characters. Fourth-wall comedy doesn't suit a serious story, but not every story needs to be serious. If the same universe has room for everything from Lee/Kirby Tales of Asgard to Frank Miller's Daredevil, there's room for fourth-wall breakage.

The issue is that the MCU was created to represent its approximation of a "real" universe, not a storyline that breaks its reality by addressing the audience. That works in comedies that were never trying to adhere to any idea of existing in a "real" universe of its own, or one-offs, such as The Twilight Zone's 1st season episode, "A World of His Own", where the Gregory West character recognizes Rod Serling (who was delivering an on-set coda to the story), and eliminates him by throwing the "Serling" tape into a fireplace (in the same manner he got rid of his wife earlier in the episode). West is aware of Serling as a host, and Serling himself--in a voice over--recognizes West as being in control of The Twilight Zone. That worked as it was an odd gag for one episode, not the pattern for the entire series.

When Deadpool breaks the fourth wall, its not a one-off, but business as usual--the "reality" as usual, so his fourth wall breaking being a part of the MCU gives the residual effect of it all being part of a story consciously told / referred to by someone.
 
The issue is that the MCU was created to represent its approximation of a "real" universe, not a storyline that breaks its reality by addressing the audience.

The MCU does not have to be only one thing.

When Deadpool breaks the fourth wall, its not a one-off, but business as usual--the "reality" as usual, so his fourth wall breaking being a part of the MCU gives the residual effect of it all being part of a story consciously told / referred to by someone.

Which absolutely works for Deadpool stories. For stories it doesn’t work for, they can just not do that.
 
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