How would you change the show?

[Deks]

And the damage done to Tuvok by this choice. Worth it?

Tuvok volunteered for the mission. He also accepted a life in StarFleet which comes with numerous dangers, and knew something like this was possible.
By this analogy we should blame every other SF captain for ordering their crewmembers to do seemingly 'ridiculous missions'... even ones that could result in their deaths.
If I recall, this was something SF thought to be important if you wanted to be in the Command division of SF... ordering people to go into their deaths.

What's worse, Janeway wanted to go on this mission ALONE... Tuvok and Torres volunteered... no... INSISTED to accompany her.

Also, there was no seemingly permanent damage to Tuvok from his assimilation. He was in the Collective very briefly. Similar amount of time, or even less than Picard.

Yes, the Vulcan psyche is capable of being permanently damaged, but also due to his ability to control emotions, Tuvok would have been able to cope with his assimilation experience better than Picard.

Hardly. Starfleet still struggled in First Contact with all the Federation's resources,, while a loan ship continually defeats them..

You realize of course that VOY got stranded in the DQ well before FC movie and was still getting back home and as such, SF didn't have access to Borg corpses.
VOY crew did.
SF did manage to upgrade its technology however in the interim to severely damage the cube in FC... at the very least, they didn't suffer massive losses like at Wolf 359.

 

[fireproof78]

Also, there was no seemingly permanent damage to Tuvok from his assimilation. He was in the Collective very briefly. Similar amount of time, or even less than Picard.

Yes, the Vulcan psyche is capable of being permanently damaged, but also due to his ability to control emotions, Tuvok would have been able to cope with his assimilation experience better than Picard.

So assimilation is now no big deal? Someone should tell Picard.

You realize of course that VOY got stranded in the DQ well before FC movie and was still getting back home and as such, SF didn't have access to Borg corpses.

Hardly. Descent had plenty.

 

[Deks]

So assimilation is now no big deal? Someone should tell Picard.

Taken out of context. I never said assimilation wasn't a big deal... just that that Vulcan mind and body were repeatedly stated to be more resiliant than Human's (plus the Vulcans have 3x the strength of a human... enlarged neocortex which gives them better analytical abilities - and with that, presumably to break down past experiences into more manageable bits - aka, deconstruction - to be able to cope with things better).
Couple this with their daily meditation practice and you get a humanoid capable of better withstanding the psychological effects of assimilation than a human could.

Hardly. Descent had plenty.

Then blame Beverly Crusher for her incompetence... also, we're talking about simple ability to block/delay the onset of mental assimilation... not something that can be injected once into people and remain in their system indefinitely. It has to be used before being assimilated to maximize the time frame you get from the protective effects.

SF did manage to adapt its technology regardless before FC movie... and was able to incur damage to a cube without having access to Borg technology (such as a ship).
VOY had access to a Borg ship, its technology and a corpse in the Nekrit Expanse.

SF didn't have that kind of access.

 

[fireproof78]

Taken out of context. I never said assimilation wasn't a big deal... just that that Vulcan mind and body were repeatedly stated to be more resiliant than Human's (p

Then I again question the decision making of the captain.

Then blame Beverly Crusher for her incompetence... also, we're talking about simple ability to block/delay the onset of mental assimilation... not something that can be injected once into people and remain in their system indefinitely. It has to be used before being assimilated to maximize the time frame you get from the protective effects.

You're telling me that Starfleet could not study and develop these tools based on Picard, and Hugh, and the drone colony after Lore's deactivation? But, Voyager, with limited resources is able to create experimental blocks for assimilation? And then conduct human experimentation?

 

[Deks]

You're telling me that Starfleet could not study and develop these tools based on Picard, and Hugh, and the drone colony after Lore's deactivation? But, Voyager, with limited resources is able to create experimental blocks for assimilation? And then conduct human experimentation?

Yes. Because the Borg colony was disbanded for one thing, and I doubt SF would want to intrude on them given their initial hostility.
We also never saw the Enterprise pick up any Borg bodies from the initial attack.
Picard was de-assimilated. Hugh was a live Borg who spent a brief period of time on the Enterprise.
The EMH had access to the Borg corpse for YEARS to tinker with and more advanced technology and millions of methods to devise these new technologies... also again 7 of 9 to assist him.
Crusher was just a human... the EMH was an AI.

Each SF ship is a proverbial laboratory with highly advanced technology... and by the time VOY reached Borg space, replicators were working mostly without much rationing... so the crew was able to do decent R&D.

VOY crew was also able to remake a version 2 of the Quantum Slipstream drive and make it many times faster than the original mere 6 months after encountering it... and the new version had/incorporated Borg technology, Quantum Matrix and Benamite crystals.

It wasn't the same thing because SF in the Alpha Quadrant never had the same access or the motivation.

Plus, VOY was under different circumstances.
SF decided to abandon development of the USS Defiant (designed to fight and defeat the Borg) because the Borg threat became less imminent... VOY was in the DQ and once they started running into the Collective and their technology, the crew was kick started to make more headway (especially after being 'given' a disabled cube in the Nekrit Expanse - SF never had the luxury of a disabled Borg ship for study in significant detail).

Even the EMH said after examining the Borg corpse they retrieved, he was starting to better understand how their assimilation technology works and was working on a way to counter it (this was in Scorpion part 1).

So, already we have clear headway being made by VOY and its EMH in the DQ due to different set of circumstances, better tools, and proper access to Borg tech and their deceased drone.

I've also pointed this out several times... if you want to ignore this information, that's your right,.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes. Because the Borg colony was disbanded for one thing, and I doubt SF would want to intrude on them given their initial hostility.
We also never saw the Enterprise pick up any Borg bodies from the initial attack.
Picard was de-assimilated. Hugh was a live Borg who spent a brief period of time on the Enterprise.
The EMH had access to the Borg corpse for YEARS to tinker with and more advanced technology and millions of methods to devise these new technologies... also again 7 of 9 to assist him.
Crusher was just a human... the EMH was an AI.

Each SF ship is a proverbial laboratory with highly advanced technology... and by this point, replicators were working mostly without much rationing... so the crew was able to do R&D.

VOY crew was also able to remake a version 2 of the Quantum Slipstream drive and make it many times faster than the original mere 6 months after encountering it... and the new version had/incorporated Borg technology, Quantum Matrix and Benamite crystals.

It wasn't the same thing because SF in the Alpha Quadrant never had the same access or the motivation.

Plus, VOY was under different circumstances.
SF decided to abandon development of the USS Defiant (designed to fight and defeat the Borg) because the Borg threat became less imminent... VOY was in the DQ and once they started running into the Collective and their technology, the crew was kick started to make more headway (especially after being 'given' a disabled cube in the Nekrit Expanse - SF never had the luxury of a disabled Borg ship for study in significant detail).

Even the EMH said after examining the Borg corpse they retrieved, he was starting to better understand how their assimilation technology works and was working on a way to counter it (this was in Scorpion part 1).

So, already we have clear headway being made by VOY and its EMH in the DQ due to different set of circumstances, better tools, and proper access to Borg tech and their deceased drone.

I've also pointed this out several times... if you want to ignore this information, that's your right,.

That you state it several times doesn't make it more believable.

 

[Deks]

That you state it several times doesn't make it more believable.

Go watch the series then. Don't take my word for it.

 

[fireproof78]

Go watch the series then. Don't take my word for it.

The series is just as unbelievable. I've done the Voyager thing. It doesn't work on screen. People are great at making excuses after the fact but when I watch the show I'm left disengaged and unconvinced.

 

[Deks]

The series is just as unbelievable. I've done the Voyager thing. It doesn't work on screen. People are great at making excuses after the fact but when I watch the show I'm left disengaged and unconvinced.

Then construct your own head canon however you like and run with that if you want.
I was presenting you with info based off what we got on-screen.

 

[fireproof78]

Then construct your own head canon however you like and run with that if you want.
I was presenting you with info based off what we got on-screen.

You say that like all on screen data points are believable. If you want me to believe it then you'll need to download your head canon to my brain and imply that the heroes of TNG are ignorant, incompetent and unwilling to do what a loan ship with no resources just decided one day to do.

 

[Deks]

You say that like all on screen data points are believable. If you want me to believe it then you'll need to download your head canon to my brain and imply that the heroes of TNG are ignorant, incompetent and unwilling to do what a loan ship with no resources just decided one day to do.

Belief is ridiculous and irrelevant (if you ask me) and has 0 bearing on this discussion.
As I said... I was positing info based off what we got on-screen. If you want to contest that, take it up with the writers.

 

[fireproof78]

Belief is ridiculous and irrelevant (if you ask me) and has 0 bearing on this discussion.
As I said... I was positing info based off what we got on-screen. If you want to contest that, take it up with the writers.

When they start posting here I'll be happy to do so.

Suspension of disbelief is a huge factor in enjoyment in fiction for me. So, when the story strains credulity, regardless of what is reported on the screen. How it comes across is basically is "accept it without question." I suppose I should just do that?

 

[Anwar]

The series is just as unbelievable. I've done the Voyager thing. It doesn't work on screen. People are great at making excuses after the fact but when I watch the show I'm left disengaged and unconvinced.

What WOULD convince you that VOY could develop those countermeasures? If they explicitly had them say "The Borg Colony taught us how to neutralize assimilation"?

This is the problem with the audience, they just aren't tolerant of anything the show did. Nothing would please them.

 

[fireproof78]

What WOULD convince you that VOY could develop those countermeasures? If they explicitly had them say "The Borg Colony taught us how to neutralize assimilation"?

Yes. Trial and failure, and showing them trying to make it work. It's a lot of unearned success that bothers me with a ship supposedly stranded with limited resources. As others have stated if you show addressing these problems, and correcting them then I am not going to question it in the future.

 

[Anwar]

Yes. Trial and failure, and showing them trying to make it work. It's a lot of unearned success that bothers me with a ship supposedly stranded with limited resources. As others have stated if you show addressing these problems, and correcting them then I am not going to question it in the future.

Let me put it this way, if Voyager lured a Borg cube into a nebula made up of a volatile substance, left a torpedo in there, swiftly flew out of the Nebula before the Borg knew they left, detonated the torpedo and the resulting super explosion caused by the Nebula severely damaged the Borg ship to the point it was too crippled to chase after Voyager and they then flew threw a wormhole that they collapsed so the Borg couldn't chase them...

...The audience would still complain that this "ruined" the Borg and made them "too Weak".

Really, you just can't win. You just can't.

 

[fireproof78]

Let me put it this way, if Voyager lured a Borg cube into a nebula made up of a volatile substance, left a torpedo in there, swiftly flew out of the Nebula before the Borg knew they left, detonated the torpedo and the resulting super explosion caused by the Nebula severely damaged the Borg ship to the point it was too crippled to chase after Voyager and they then flew threw a wormhole that they collapsed so the Borg couldn't chase them...

...The audience would still complain that this "ruined" the Borg and made them "too Weak".

Really, you just can't win. You just can't.

I can only speak for me.

 

[Anwar]

I can only speak for me.

But do you accept that the audience would have hated that scenario as well?

Cause, you know, Voyager can "do no right" after all.

 

[fireproof78]

But do you accept that the audience would have hated that scenario as well?

Cause, you know, Voyager can "do no right" after all.

I do not.

 

[Anwar]

Well, I do. If the audience hated "Living Witness" then that's proof that there's nothing the show could've done to get approval.

If "Scorpion" had been the one and only appearance of the Borg in VOY, that story would be considered the worst Borg story.

You can't win.

 

[Farscape One]

There are people who hated "LIVING WITNESS"? First I have heard this... I have heard nothing but praise regarding it, with good reason.

And "SCORPION" most certainly isn't the worst Borg use on VOYAGER. It's actually one of the best.