There was no avoiding the Borg, unless Janeway tried for the Bajoran Wormhole instead of the direct path to the Alpha Quadrant.
The Vidians were good for a couple episodes, but I wouldn't want to see any more of them.
How would you change the show?
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There was no avoiding the Borg, unless Janeway tried for the Bajoran Wormhole instead of the direct path to the Alpha Quadrant.
The Vidians were good for a couple episodes, but I wouldn't want to see any more of them.
The Vidiians were the best villains VOYAGER created.
Not only did they look fantastic (as a horror fan), but they came with a built-in moral dilemma... do you allow your race to face extinction, or do you keep your people alive by any means necessary, which includes harvesting other races for their body parts?
Between them and the Kazon from the early seasons, I would have greatly preferred more episodes of the Vidiians.
Not only did they look fantastic (as a horror fan), but they came with a built-in moral dilemma... do you allow your race to face extinction, or do you keep your people alive by any means necessary, which includes harvesting other races for their body parts?
Between them and the Kazon from the early seasons, I would have greatly preferred more episodes of the Vidiians.
The thing was that the core concept of the show was incomplete and frankly, was never completed.
Being always on the move meant that they'd have to keep leaving everything behind, meaning the writers probably figured they were wasting their time trying to put much effort into the new aliens because they couldn't stay around all series, unlike the Dominion in DS9.
There were the 8472 aliens, but the audience's negative reaction axed that.
So then there's the Borg, they're spread out enough and are advanced enough they could keep showing up for the rest of the show. Which means it doesn't matter where Voyager goes, the Borg can always be there without question.
The problem is, the prior shows overpowered the Borg so much that even though they had the ability to keep up with Voyager it would be impossible to keep them at that level while also keep them showing up.
So really, the core incomplete premise of the show held back most of the potential plots and stayed problematic even when they had story ideas that could ignore the "Always moving" plot point.
The other big issue was the Prime Directive. Being held back by that meant that they couldn't interact too much with aliens or worlds they came across who were less advanced. But if they ditched the Prime Directive, they're amoral sellouts we shouldn't sympathize with because they're going around using people.
Try to find a way to deal with both those big issues, there's more to work with.
There should've been a way to keep the Kazon and Vidiians and various other species around for all 7 seasons, and have the Borg not be native to the area so you could do one or 2 stories with them and then not have to bring them back.
IE, Voyager couldn't be on the move. Something would have to happen to make sure they stayed in the same general area and not be able to make it back to the Alpha Quadrant on their own power until the end of the show.
Being always on the move meant that they'd have to keep leaving everything behind, meaning the writers probably figured they were wasting their time trying to put much effort into the new aliens because they couldn't stay around all series, unlike the Dominion in DS9.
There were the 8472 aliens, but the audience's negative reaction axed that.
So then there's the Borg, they're spread out enough and are advanced enough they could keep showing up for the rest of the show. Which means it doesn't matter where Voyager goes, the Borg can always be there without question.
The problem is, the prior shows overpowered the Borg so much that even though they had the ability to keep up with Voyager it would be impossible to keep them at that level while also keep them showing up.
So really, the core incomplete premise of the show held back most of the potential plots and stayed problematic even when they had story ideas that could ignore the "Always moving" plot point.
The other big issue was the Prime Directive. Being held back by that meant that they couldn't interact too much with aliens or worlds they came across who were less advanced. But if they ditched the Prime Directive, they're amoral sellouts we shouldn't sympathize with because they're going around using people.
Try to find a way to deal with both those big issues, there's more to work with.
There should've been a way to keep the Kazon and Vidiians and various other species around for all 7 seasons, and have the Borg not be native to the area so you could do one or 2 stories with them and then not have to bring them back.
IE, Voyager couldn't be on the move. Something would have to happen to make sure they stayed in the same general area and not be able to make it back to the Alpha Quadrant on their own power until the end of the show.
I agree that they never could have developed those 'local' races to the same point as AQ races or some of the GQ races in DS9, if they were to hold to their premise of trying to reach home and actually getting closer to home over the series' run. I also agree that the Borg could always be there, but that they were so overpowered they couldn't show up too often without it looking highly improbable that Voyager kept defying the odds.
There was another narrative structural element thought that they could have used as a theme throughout the series, but that they ditched very quickly. I'm talking about the internal tensions in the crew. Initially this was along the fault lines of Starfleet and Maquis. Though I think that holding on to that specific division in itself would not make sense (the Maquis after all were only disgruntled Federation (ex-)citizens and they had no cause to keep the conflict with Starfleet up, at least not while they were in the DQ), I could have seen the division line develop more along those that wanted to adhere to Starfleet principles - no interference with societies not ready for it, no affecting local balances of power, etc, and those wishing to manipulate local circumstances to their own advantage ('so what if we give replicator technology to species X if they tell us where that stable wormhole is?'). We might have gotten story arcs about a crew that is mostly dependable but sometimes a part will act behind Janeway's back, and her command is never quite strong enough to fully flush them out and yet she can't run the ship without them, so she has to compromise a bit between 'Starfleet Principles' and simply getting her ship home. A bit like how Sisko could sometimes be at odds between his Emissary and Starfleet duties.
Instead, what we got was that beyond the first half of S1 perhaps, it was simplified to the Unquestioningly Loyals (nearly everybody) and a very few Traitors - and even that only lasted till the death of Seska, end of season 3.
There was another narrative structural element thought that they could have used as a theme throughout the series, but that they ditched very quickly. I'm talking about the internal tensions in the crew. Initially this was along the fault lines of Starfleet and Maquis. Though I think that holding on to that specific division in itself would not make sense (the Maquis after all were only disgruntled Federation (ex-)citizens and they had no cause to keep the conflict with Starfleet up, at least not while they were in the DQ), I could have seen the division line develop more along those that wanted to adhere to Starfleet principles - no interference with societies not ready for it, no affecting local balances of power, etc, and those wishing to manipulate local circumstances to their own advantage ('so what if we give replicator technology to species X if they tell us where that stable wormhole is?'). We might have gotten story arcs about a crew that is mostly dependable but sometimes a part will act behind Janeway's back, and her command is never quite strong enough to fully flush them out and yet she can't run the ship without them, so she has to compromise a bit between 'Starfleet Principles' and simply getting her ship home. A bit like how Sisko could sometimes be at odds between his Emissary and Starfleet duties.
Instead, what we got was that beyond the first half of S1 perhaps, it was simplified to the Unquestioningly Loyals (nearly everybody) and a very few Traitors - and even that only lasted till the death of Seska, end of season 3.
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Really? I don't know anyone who didn't like 8472.
Oh heck yes there was dislike. The idea that there was anyone out there who could fight the Borg enraged many.
In "UNITY", B'Elanna posed the idea that someone more powerful beat that cube. A little foreshadowing, considering "SCORPION" was 9 episodes later.
Regarding DS9, I thought it very believable that the tensions stopped after season 1. It's also why "DRAMATIS PERSONAE" was an episode that worked precisely because of where it was placed. It was at the end of season 1 where this kind of conflict could happen, but not far enough along in the series to make it ludicrous to happen. (I'm looking at you, Janeway and Chakotay not trusting each other in season 6's "THE VOYAGER CONSPIRACY".)
Regarding DS9, I thought it very believable that the tensions stopped after season 1. It's also why "DRAMATIS PERSONAE" was an episode that worked precisely because of where it was placed. It was at the end of season 1 where this kind of conflict could happen, but not far enough along in the series to make it ludicrous to happen. (I'm looking at you, Janeway and Chakotay not trusting each other in season 6's "THE VOYAGER CONSPIRACY".)
It was never a forgone conclusion that Voyager would run into them.
"We don't know exactly how many vessels are out there, but their space appears to be vast; it includes thousands of solar systems - all Borg. We are no doubt entering the heart of their territory." - Captain Janeway
Scorpion clearly establishes the Delta Quadrant is where they originate and the amount of space they occupy. The most we knew up until then came from Q, Who? where the cube is discovered 7,000 light years from the Enterprise's previous position. This is all news to the crew of Voyager as well.
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Considering Janeway's statement of how vast their space is and they are 'entering the heart of their territory', how is that not a foregone conclusion?
It's so vast and they are in the heart of their territory? One, how could they know that? Two, if you're in the heart of someone's territory I would imagine I would expect to see them!
Sounds like a good show. I'd watch it.
Because, as I stated, it was not generally known at that point that quadrant was where they originated.
But the probe data clearly showed enough Borg stuff for them to extrapolate the space.
That's why I sometimes refer to the "Janeway koolaid", because the crew gave her far greater loyalty than made sense. Look at the end of "The 37's" if you don't believe me. The only people who didn't blindly adopt not just Starfleet uniform but also Starfleet philosophy were Seska and Jonas.
But, Kira and Odo never stopped being what they were. The Maquis were indistinguishable from the Starfleet crew almost from Year 1.
Do you know how to quote-respond to people? It helps that you quote the person you are responding to in order to avoid confusion.
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I do know how, but since the two or three most direct posts before mine dealt with what I was saying and the content also directly talks about the probe data, I figured everyone here was smart enough to know I was responding to those posts. But here are quotes to avoid confusion.
Since the probe data showed a lot of Borg, and the area was large, it's very reasonable to figure that it's the main Borg territory. And she never said they were already in it. She said they were entering it, meaning about to go there.
The whole point of them sending out long range probes was to help them figure out the space ahead. And good thing, since the Borg finding the probe was better than the Borg finding Voyager. Gave them a bit of time to at least prepare some things. (Not that you can do a lot to prepare against them anyway.)
Yeah, another problem was that the writers of both DS9 and VOY didn't do a good job of really making the Maquis out to be more than some Rebel Group. We never learned their differing philosophies on intervention, their tactics or what made them truly different from Starfleet.
DS9 DID do that...but only years later.
Frankly, this is why I think they should've used pre-established groups who had been given truly different characteristics.
IE, make the second crew Romulans. Make Beltran a Romulan Captain who agrees to work with Janeway as an equal rather than XO.
I could see Robert Beltran as a Romulan. Maybe they'd have let him actually act, then, as opposed to the "humans act wooden" rule they had.
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