Spoilers Are Anakin and Darth Vader really the same person?

[Kor]

I agree that was the intent, but all that ever indicated to me was that he was a human child who didn't want to leave his mother in slavery.

Yes, I think the Jedi masters were being rather unfair in expecting Anakin to let go of his connection to his mother so soon. He didn't have the "benefit" of having been taken from his family before he could form any memories of them and then living in an ascetic community for the past several years.

YODA: See through you, we can.
MACE: Be mindful of your feelings.
KI-ADI: Your thoughts dwell on your mother.
ANAKIN: I miss her.
YODA: Afraid to lose her, I think.
ANAKIN: What's that got to do with anything?
YODA: Everything. Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

Kor

 

[fireproof78]

The problem was that the Jedi treated Anakin always as "the other." He was never going to fall in line with the other Jedi students not just because of how old he was but because of the belief in Anakin as "The Chosen One." Anakin wasn't just set up to be trained as a Jedi, but THE Jedi, the one to restore balance to the Force.

And, Anakin knows it. Even in Attack of the Clones he decries himself, stating he is not the Jedi he "should be." At every turn the Jedi try to have their cake and eat it too, treating Anakin as both a regular, degular, Jedi and yet demanding he be the Chosen One.

 

[Reverend]

Well also remember that the Council initially flatly refused to train him. Yoda only relented when Obi-Wan made it clear he'd straight up go rogue and do it anyway; So if it is going to happen either way, better that it be done where they can at least see it, and maybe help steer it.
Even a decade plus later, most of the High Council (especially Windu) were clearly still unconvinced that Anakin was even the Chosen One of prophecy at all, or that the prophecy even says what they think it says. In the beginning at least, I don't think even Obi-Wan really believed it; he was first and foremost following the literal dying wish of his Master.

So to say the Council had unrealistic or even "high" expectations of Anakin (relative to any Padawan) is stretching the reality of the situation quite a bit. What most of them expected from him is trouble, which is exactly what he provided. It's not like they invested all their hopes and dreams in him single handedly rescuing them from the Dark Side. They treated him like a live grenade with a loose pin, and with good reason.

As for the issue of attachments: again, it wasn't an expectation, it was just part of the training. He was trained for a decade solid how to let go of his attachments, to become at peace, balanced, and passive. He *consciously* choose not to . . . with a not insignificant amount of manipulation from Palpatine along the way, no doubt.

 

[fireproof78]

So to say the Council had unrealistic or even "high" expectations of Anakin (relative to any Padawan) is stretching the reality of the situation quite a bit.

I wouldn't say unrealistic. I would say they treated him as different or special or unusual, singling him out.

As for the issue of attachments: again, it wasn't an expectation, it was just part of the training. He was trained for a decade solid how to let go of his attachments, to become at peace, balanced, and passive. He *consciously* choose not to . . . with a not insignificant amount of manipulation from Palpatine along the way, no doubt.

And he wasn't able to do it in the same way as regular Jedi. But the Jedi still treated him like he was to fall in line.

 

[Reverend]

I wouldn't say unrealistic. I would say they treated him as different or special or unusual, singling him out.

Based on what, exactly? We saw next to nothing of the time between TPM & AotC. Even so, of course he'd be treated differently; he skipped a decade or more of Initiate training and went straight to an apprenticed Padawan learner at an unusually young age. If they treated him like the other Jedi of his age or experience level, they'd have sent him to the youngling nursery.

And he wasn't able to do it in the same way as regular Jedi. But the Jedi still treated him like he was to fall in line.

That's what being a Jedi is. He knew that. Had a decade yo learn it. The option to leave and make a life for himself was always on the table. Nobody forced him to do anything, or told him he has any sort of obligation.

Anakin made his own decisions.

 

[Ithekro]

Anakin grew his skills to a very high level, but he missed so much of the fundamentals to being a Jedi, since he didn't get the childhood education that basically everyone else got.

If you think about it, Ahsoka had just about as much training time as Anakin, just she spent it as a Youngling in the temple, while Anakin was doing stuff in the field with Obi-Wan. That Ahsoka had Anakin as her Master and that she excelled despite the war means that he was at least somewhat of a good teacher. Even if it was mostly by example.

 

[fireproof78]

Based on what, exactly? We saw next to nothing of the time between TPM & AotC. Even so, of course he'd be treated differently; he skipped a decade or more of Initiate training and went straight to an apprenticed Padawan learner at an unusually young age. If they treated him like the other Jedi of his age or experience level, they'd have sent him to the youngling nursery.

Based on the conversation between Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda in AOTC.

That's what being a Jedi is. He knew that. Had a decade yo learn it. The option to leave and make a life for himself was always on the table. Nobody forced him to do anything, or told him he has any sort of obligation.

Anakin made his own decisions.

I'm not saying he didn't. I am saying that being treated differently isolated him further with Palpatine ensuring that he was.

 

[Reverend]

Based on the conversation between Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda in AOTC.

The conversation in which Obi-Wan expresses concerns for Anakin being ready for this solo assignment? In which Windu points out his skills being "exceptional"? Where Yoda attempts to teach Mace of his own growing arrogance and it flies right over his head?

Nothing they say tells us there are any expectations on Anakin. All Mace says about the prophecy here is that IF it is true, then Anakin is the only one who can restore balance. He's still not convinced, let alone expecting Anakin to save the universe. And even if he did, Anakin isn't in the loop on this, so it's all moot. He can hardly feel pressured by a conversation he's not even present for.

What's more, this mission is meant as a test of Anakin's skill and character, nothing more. And let's be clear; it's a simple babysitting assignment. He's supposed to go to a very friendly, comfortable world, and sit in an isolated secret retreat with a Senator, watch for more assassins, and wait until Obi-Wan has done all the real Jedi work and it's safe for her to return.
And so of course he creeps at her, tries to seduce her, then runs off and murders a village of women and children, and gets his arm cut off because he thought going straight at one of the finest saber masters in the Order was a good idea.

I'm not saying he didn't. I am saying that being treated differently isolated him further with Palpatine ensuring that he was.

Well a secret Sith Lord is always going to be wildcard, not really something that could have accounted for, what with the whole "secret" part, no?

 

[Dee1891]

Nothing they say tells us there are any expectations on Anakin. All Mace says about the prophecy here is that IF it is true, then Anakin is the only one who can restore balance. He's still not convinced, let alone expecting Anakin to save the universe. And even if he did, Anakin isn't in the loop on this, so it's all moot. He can hardly feel pressured by a conversation he's not even present for.

That is not the impression I had come away with, while watching "Attack of the Clones". I never got the impression that Mace had doubts about the Chosen One prophecy in this particular film. He seemed surprised that Obi-Wan would have doubts.

 

[Reverend]

That is not the impression I had come away with, while watching "Attack of the Clones". I never got the impression that Mace had doubts about the Chosen One prophecy in this particular film. He seemed surprised that Obi-Wan would have doubts.

He literally says: -

"Remember, Obi-Wan, if the prophecy is true your apprentice is the only one who can bring the Force back into balance."​

The key phrase the is IF. It's not a certainty. Mace's faith isn't in Anakin, it's in the force. If the prophecy is true, then it will all work itself out (which it ultimately did, in fairness), and if it's not, well not even Anakin could screw up such an easy first solo mission, right? (Oops!)
Given the context, this also strikes me as Mace being just a tiny bit passive aggressive in a "I told you not to train him, but you went and did it anyway, and NOW you have concerns?" kinda way.

 

[fireproof78]

The conversation in which Obi-Wan expresses concerns for Anakin being ready for this solo assignment? In which Windu points out his skills being "exceptional"? Where Yoda attempts to teach Mace of his own growing arrogance and it flies right over his head?

Interesting that you think it is a reference to Mace and not Obi-Wan.

Nothing they say tells us there are any expectations on Anakin.

To me, it's both. Anakin states that he is not the Jedi he should be, and Mace's discussion of the prophecy point towards they are focused on his abilities and training, expecting him to be a certain way, whether they believe or not.

Anakin is treated different is all I'm saying.

Well a secret Sith Lord is always going to be wildcard, not really something that could have accounted for, what with the whole "secret" part, no?

Of course. But, the larger point is that Anakin being treated differently made him even more vulnerable. The Jedi are dismissive of his fears, ignoring that his background makes him even more susceptible during his training. Obi-Wan dismisses his dreams, ignoring the obvious attachment Anakin has to his mother. It's a lot of ignoring and expecting Anakin to fall in line with the Jedi Way whole cloth.

I'm not saying Anakin doesn't have his choices but he also didn't have the support he needed either.

 

[Kor]

I'm reminded of a deleted scene from AOTC wherein Obi-Wan is expressing doubt in his padawan's ability to handle the mission to protect Senator Amidala, and Mace is the one telling him he must have faith that his pupil will make the right choices. If this had been included in the film it might have felt out of place.

Kor

 

[BillJ]

Are they the same person? Considering how ape shit Vader went over Padme’s death after Sidious saved him, I’m gonna say yes.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Interesting that you think it is a reference to Mace and not Obi-Wan.

To me, it's both. Anakin states that he is not the Jedi he should be, and Mace's discussion of the prophecy point towards they are focused on his abilities and training, expecting him to be a certain way, whether they believe or not.

Anakin is treated different is all I'm saying.

True; from AOTC-forward, Anakin's "Chosen One" status / mission is referred to--an acknowledgement of his special place in the Will of the Force, so of course, there's much expected of him.

I'm not saying Anakin doesn't have his choices but he also didn't have the support he needed either.

This is where Qui-Gon should shoulder the blame; he was such an aggressive zealot in trying to sell Anakin as the "Chosen One" that there could be no proper time for analysis of who and what Anakin was, or how he would respond to his emotional issues. I always note how he pushed Obi-Wan to focus on the "here and now" (i.e., the "living Force") instead of Kenobi following Yoda's model of being mindful of the future; if Jinn had lived, his approach would (in all likelihood) have been to prod Anakin to concentrate on the moment, rather than the future--including any thought about his mother, which would ave led to the same outcome (Anakin rushing off to find her).

It appears by the era of AOTC, Obi-Wan had adopted Jinn's leanings (trying to honor Jinn's legacy/memory) and tried to keep Anakin's mind on the moment, rather than concern himself with visions or projections. Perhaps if Obi-Wan stuck to his more Yoda-aligned view of the Force instead of Jinn's, he would have used one of his non-Jedi contacts to check in on Shmi, either for information gathering (or aid, if necessary), thus easing Anakin's nerves / visions.

 

[Dee1891]

Vader makes it pretty clear that HE "killed" Anakin (therefore giving Ben's line in ANH a little more truthfullness). Vader, the cybernetic enhanced sith lord, crushed whatever humanity, whatever love he had into the burning anger of a Sith.

Savage Opress and Maul were both Dathomir Zabraks raised to the Sith by Sidious and Dooku respectively (TCW). They were not biologically brothers AFAIK.

What truthfulness? For me, this is nothing more than an attempt by the writers to compartmentalize Anakin's character. It does not work for me. Darth Vader is nothing more than a title Anakin had assumed when he became a Sith Lord and Palpatine's apprentice. For me, whether he is good or evil, he is at his core, Anakin Skywalker. Changing one's moral compass does not "kill' the previous character. Good and evil exists within all of us. Vader had never "killed" Anakin. Anakin merely chose a different moral path.

This is where Qui-Gon should shoulder the blame; he was such an aggressive zealot in trying to sell Anakin as the "Chosen One" that there could be no proper time for analysis of who and what Anakin was, or how he would respond to his emotional issues.

Considering that Qui-Gon had been killed by Darth Maul, not long after confronting the Jedi Council about Anakin and the Chosen One prophecy, I don't see how he had time to discuss this with more detail. The Jedi Order had thirteen years to analyze the Chosen One prophecy. Apparently, they didn't bother.

 

[Set Harth]

Savage Opress and Maul were both Dathomir Zabraks raised to the Sith by Sidious and Dooku respectively (TCW). They were not biologically brothers AFAIK.

Apparently they are supposed to have been literally brothers or perhaps half-brothers, though I suppose it is possible that the term "brother" as they use it really means something more like "kinsman" or "fellow clan member".

 

[Dee1891]

As for the issue of attachments: again, it wasn't an expectation, it was just part of the training. He was trained for a decade solid how to let go of his attachments, to become at peace, balanced, and passive. He *consciously* choose not to . . . with a not insignificant amount of manipulation from Palpatine along the way, no doubt.

Exactly how did the Jedi train its members to let go of their emotions? Aside from the occasional lecture and the rule about having attachments? Frankly, I still find their training in regard to attachments very questionable, considering how it seemed to me that many of them had become attached to the Jedi Order itself. How else would one explain the numerous decisions the Council had made to ensure the Order's survival and standing within the Republic?

 

[fireproof78]

What truthfulness? For me, this is nothing more than an attempt by the writers to compartmentalize Anakin's character. It does not work for me. Darth Vader is nothing more than a title Anakin had assumed when he became a Sith Lord and Palpatine's apprentice. For me, whether he is good or evil, he is at his core, Anakin Skywalker. Changing one's moral compass does not "kill' the previous character. Good and evil exists within all of us. Vader had never "killed" Anakin. Anakin merely chose a different moral path.

Indeed, which of course gets at the heart of what Lucas stated he wanted to do with Anakin's journey in the PT-how a good man becomes bad. So, the whole idea of a split personality idea that gets thrown about around Sith Lords sounds cool, but undermines the whole point of the story. Besides, if Anakin was killed, did he "undie" in Return of the Jedi?

 

[Set Harth]

The whole idea comes from Ben in ROTJ trying to justify what he told Luke in ANH ( instead of just saying "I lied for a good reason" ), so Lucas was the one who put it out there in the first place. He allegedly said similar things in an interview, but it's of sketchy provenance.

 

[Ithekro]

Also when it was decided to replace the Force Ghost of Sebastian Shaw with Hayden Christensen at the end of Return of the Jedi. Though it also reflects that Anakin was only 45 when Vader died. Meaning Hayden is now about the right age to play Anakin as a Force Ghost in Ahsoka.