We're a work in progress. Maybe we weren’t meant for paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through, struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way.
Spoilers The Gorn should sue this show
- Thread starter Charles Phipps
- Start date
Maybe it's not the destination...
In the case of humanity, that could very well be it. There's no such thing as perfection, but if we improve only a little bit at a time, that's still progress, even if it's painstakingly slow and has occasional bad stumbles.
Well, the one thing this show has me think about is that maybe the Mirror Universe humans were doing things the right way. Thats a terrible lesson to have learned, IMO.
So to join the 'Great Quote Wars'...
"The Road to hell is paved with Good Intentions", and in this scenario, Pike/Federation have good intentions, and Hell = DEATH. Everyone in this timeline seems so much badder ass(?) than Earthlings, and beligerant ("don't touch our comet or we'll murder you!"), that humans should just all go home and hide. Space is TERRIBLE.
And I've never felt this way about the ST universe before. Heck, even the Kelven timeline seemed hopeful. I mean, we got the main character with his own brutal death hanging over his head. Its just so... grim. Its not fun. If I wanted to watch something that made me uncomfortable I'd watch one of those documentary shows where they cut giant parasites out of people's oozing sores... that would be comedy relief compared to this.
So to join the 'Great Quote Wars'...
"The Road to hell is paved with Good Intentions", and in this scenario, Pike/Federation have good intentions, and Hell = DEATH. Everyone in this timeline seems so much badder ass(?) than Earthlings, and beligerant ("don't touch our comet or we'll murder you!"), that humans should just all go home and hide. Space is TERRIBLE.
And I've never felt this way about the ST universe before. Heck, even the Kelven timeline seemed hopeful. I mean, we got the main character with his own brutal death hanging over his head. Its just so... grim. Its not fun. If I wanted to watch something that made me uncomfortable I'd watch one of those documentary shows where they cut giant parasites out of people's oozing sores... that would be comedy relief compared to this.
If you are referring to Pike knowing about his death, that's actually false. He saw himself disfigured and vegetative, like in "THE MENAGERIE". Granted, that is a fate worse than death, but it's one of the reasons why he's so compelling. He knew he would end up that way, yet still chose to get the time crystal for a greater good. That's very heroic, if you ask me... not risking your safety to save others, but knowing you will end up in such a horrid condition to save others. It's still heroic to risk yourself to save others, but the certainty amps the heroism level up more.
Frankly, Anson Mount's Pike has been fantastic, and has risen quite high on my list of ST captains. And SNW, I think, is more hopeful than either DISCO or PICARD. (That might be a controversial opinion, but I truly feel this.)
Frankly, Anson Mount's Pike has been fantastic, and has risen quite high on my list of ST captains. And SNW, I think, is more hopeful than either DISCO or PICARD. (That might be a controversial opinion, but I truly feel this.)
It absolutely is. Trek made it too safe and sanitized. TOS showed a lot of dangers and Kirk could be downright grim, and reflective, like Pike.
Sorry it's not fun for you but for me this is right in line with the Cage or Balance of Terror.
Space isn't called the final frontier for nothing. It is dangerous. There are countless things out there--both natural and intentional--that will kill you. It isn't for the timid. Pike and Kirk paved the way for a slightly more civilized time for Picard, but even in the TNG era there were still dangers aplenty.
What makes it worth it are the wonders space has as well, as well as the hope of making things better for generations to come, IMO.
What makes it worth it are the wonders space has as well, as well as the hope of making things better for generations to come, IMO.
He is constantly undermined by the 3 others.
How is Pike undermined and by who?
(Probably best to answer within a spoiler tag, just in case.)
(Probably best to answer within a spoiler tag, just in case.)
Take a good guess.
I have seen all of SNW, and I don't feel like Pike has been undermined. Which was why I asked. (And since others may not have seen SNW yet, I recommended the spoiler tag.)
Pike - has seen his own horrific death
Number 1.0 = Is really a marginalized person in hiding
Number 1.1 = Watched everyone she ever knew and love become food for monsters
Great Andorian character = don't even get me started...
Spock = They did a bang-up job with him, no complaints. Even the voice is spot-on. Too bad he doesn't know T'pring is gonna c...
Other Kirk = Oh yeah, he's got a bright future as num-nums for intergalactic vomit
Uhura = An 'upgrade' from the original - they basically just pasted Hoshi Sato onto Uhura (100%) Oh, and another tragic backstory, but not nearly as horrific as Number 1.1's.
Dr. M'Benga = Great fleshing-out of a memba-berry. At least he doesn't have a tragic backs... errr... his daughter is stuffed in his personal transporter because she's DYING? WTF?
So long as we remember Space Lesbians are happy (Helmsman - always cheerful, even when people are dying), thats all that matters. This show is just one personal tragedy after another - its a space opera about a ship full of broken people being thrown into an incredibly violent universe and have been surviving by the seat of their pants. Now, as I've said before, I liked it right up until this particular episode, when it all came crashing down and I realized this isn't even the same universe I am a fan of. Original Trek was about HOPE, and I really am not getting that vibe at all with this show. its more like TWD or GoT, where you're just waiting for the next shoe to drop.
Prediction: A Nausican (or some-such) shows up and bashes in the transporter guy's head with baseball bat.
Number 1.0 = Is really a marginalized person in hiding
Number 1.1 = Watched everyone she ever knew and love become food for monsters
Great Andorian character = don't even get me started...
Spock = They did a bang-up job with him, no complaints. Even the voice is spot-on. Too bad he doesn't know T'pring is gonna c...
Other Kirk = Oh yeah, he's got a bright future as num-nums for intergalactic vomit
Uhura = An 'upgrade' from the original - they basically just pasted Hoshi Sato onto Uhura (100%) Oh, and another tragic backstory, but not nearly as horrific as Number 1.1's.
Dr. M'Benga = Great fleshing-out of a memba-berry. At least he doesn't have a tragic backs... errr... his daughter is stuffed in his personal transporter because she's DYING? WTF?
So long as we remember Space Lesbians are happy (Helmsman - always cheerful, even when people are dying), thats all that matters. This show is just one personal tragedy after another - its a space opera about a ship full of broken people being thrown into an incredibly violent universe and have been surviving by the seat of their pants. Now, as I've said before, I liked it right up until this particular episode, when it all came crashing down and I realized this isn't even the same universe I am a fan of. Original Trek was about HOPE, and I really am not getting that vibe at all with this show. its more like TWD or GoT, where you're just waiting for the next shoe to drop.
Prediction: A Nausican (or some-such) shows up and bashes in the transporter guy's head with baseball bat.
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I feel each is a different take on hope. Even TOS was not always hopeful.
I never said TOS was always hopeful. I have pointed out in the past many episodes that end on a downer.
While DISCO does have the spirit of the franchise there, sometimes that just feels forced instead of it being a more natural growth within the story.
PICARD feels similar that way, though the two seasons do even more meandering in the middle than DISCO. Season 2 is especially guilty of this.
Having said that, both DISCO season 4 and PICARD season 2 at least stuck the landing this time, as opposed to their previous seasons. I'm hoping they finally ironed out the kinks in their season arc storytelling for future seasons.
While DISCO does have the spirit of the franchise there, sometimes that just feels forced instead of it being a more natural growth within the story.
PICARD feels similar that way, though the two seasons do even more meandering in the middle than DISCO. Season 2 is especially guilty of this.
Having said that, both DISCO season 4 and PICARD season 2 at least stuck the landing this time, as opposed to their previous seasons. I'm hoping they finally ironed out the kinks in their season arc storytelling for future seasons.
While TOS was pretty much a happy place all the time ....
OH, wait ...
Kirk gets split in two and damned near rapes Yeoman Rand
Charlie X did unspeakable things to multiple crew members
Gary Mitchell was killed by his best friend after murdering a few crew members
A rather long running tally can be kept for how many Red Shirt crew died
Dr. McCoy injects himself with a drug overdose and completely changes history, then
Kirk fixes everything by letting his new girlfriend get killed by a truck
Kirks brother and his family are murdered by alien parasites...
I could go on, but perhaps the point is made.
I didn't say you didn't. More an observation around how hope is expressed in the franchise. That's why I felt Discovery hit hope in a much different way.
I don't see how any of that undermines Pike. It's just everyone is getting some backstory and being fleshed out, like what you are supposed to do with your characters.
I'll agree that having virtually everyone have a sad or disastrous backstory is overkill, but at least they got something.
And by the way, it's not the first time we see a lot of lead characters in a single series with sad backstories.
DS9, just from the pilot...
Sisko - wife killed at Wolf 359, left to raise his son alone.
Jake - mom killed while young.
Kira - lived her entire life under Cardassian occupation, became part of the resistance and killed for freedom.
Odo - is the only member of his species, 'grew up' in a lab being experimented on.
O'Brien - fought in the Cardassian War, has mental scars from that time.
TNG...
Picard - lost his previous ship, and got his best friend killed.
Beverly - lost her husband, raising her son alone.
Wesley - lost his dad at a young age.
Yar - grew up on a planet under horrible conditions, like having rape gangs.
Geordi - blind at birth.
Worf - orphaned as a child, lived in a foreign culture and world.
While the TNG characters weren't really broken people, they did have scars and got past them.
With DS9, they had them from the jump, and we see them move past their demons.
And by the way, Pike didn't see his death. He saw a fate WORSE than death. And he still kept going. That makes him heroic.
Tragedy breeds drama. Might be a "shortcut" but you'll find many characters have some sort of tragedy in their past that will impact their present. Kirk might be the "King of Pain". He has a handful of failed relationships (including a son he can never see), a childhood massacre, bullied as a student, a second massacre as an adult and then the hits keep on coming. He has to kill his best friend. Three of his girlfriends die in front of him. He loses two children ( including the aforementioned son). Another best friend dies. His ship is destroyed,
EDIT: And how could I forget. His brother, sister in law and possibly two nephews are killed by a parasite.
EDIT: And how could I forget. His brother, sister in law and possibly two nephews are killed by a parasite.
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