Hair-splitting aside,, souls are established science in Star Trek.
Spoilers The Gorn should sue this show
- Thread starter Charles Phipps
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And not just for Vulcans. Kirk's mind and Mulhall's were temporarily put in globes in "Return to Tomorrow," as was Spock's. (Chapel got to carry Spock's mind around for a bit, too.)Hair-splitting aside,, souls are established science in Star Trek.
Yeah, the Gorn were always hideous - destroying an unnarmed and unresisting science outpost ("because it's in our space!!" is a laughable excuse) is bad enough, but then they actually post snipers in the surrounding canyons and wait for rescue parties to arrive and provide aid to the few survivors (who, naturally, the Gorn make no attempt to provide aid to themselves). They then open fire on the rescuers from afar. There isn't even any point to doing this, they've already butchered the people of Cestus III and "sent a message to the Federation" or whatever they thought they were doing, they just remain there to execute Starfleet medics and rescue teams for a laugh. They're definitely not analogous to the Federation.
I don't like the Gorn plot point in SNW, but only because the Gorn aren't meant to have encountered the Federation yet, and Arena works a lot better if the Gorn are a shocking new presence out of the darkness of unexplored space. But it doesn't really contradict anything we know about the Gorn's behaviour already, and it doesn't cheapen the message of Arena - Kirk's decision to refuse violence doesn't hinge on the Gorn being subjectively "redeemable" enough to warrant mercy, it's a decision made out of his conviction that violence just isn't the best way to solve any given situation, especially not in the case of the Gorn Captain, who was incapacitated and helpless. If anything, it strengthens the message that was already there - if Kirk had already heard rumours about the Gorn being as terrible as La'an describes them, his choice to refuse further violence takes even more moral courage.
I don't like the Gorn plot point in SNW, but only because the Gorn aren't meant to have encountered the Federation yet, and Arena works a lot better if the Gorn are a shocking new presence out of the darkness of unexplored space. But it doesn't really contradict anything we know about the Gorn's behaviour already, and it doesn't cheapen the message of Arena - Kirk's decision to refuse violence doesn't hinge on the Gorn being subjectively "redeemable" enough to warrant mercy, it's a decision made out of his conviction that violence just isn't the best way to solve any given situation, especially not in the case of the Gorn Captain, who was incapacitated and helpless. If anything, it strengthens the message that was already there - if Kirk had already heard rumours about the Gorn being as terrible as La'an describes them, his choice to refuse further violence takes even more moral courage.
Gorn captain: Tell us your sad story, La'an. Tell us how you planned to take revenge for the death of your family.
La'an: That's not true!
Slar: Objection! La'an has not been identified as the assassin.
Gorn judge: Sustained.
Gorn captain: I offer into the record this excerpt from the Noonien-Singh's personal log.
La'an (recording): I've never trusted Gorn and I never will. I've never been able to forgive them for the death of my family.
Gorn: (in Gorn) Again! Again!
Gorn judge: La'an Noonien-Singh. It is the judgment of this court, that without possibility of reprieve or parole, you will be taken from this place to the breeding mines on the nursery asteroid of Gecko Hel, there to spend the rest of your augmented life!
Scott: Better to kill her now and get it over with.
La'an: That's not true!
Slar: Objection! La'an has not been identified as the assassin.
Gorn judge: Sustained.
Gorn captain: I offer into the record this excerpt from the Noonien-Singh's personal log.
La'an (recording): I've never trusted Gorn and I never will. I've never been able to forgive them for the death of my family.
Gorn: (in Gorn) Again! Again!
Gorn judge: La'an Noonien-Singh. It is the judgment of this court, that without possibility of reprieve or parole, you will be taken from this place to the breeding mines on the nursery asteroid of Gecko Hel, there to spend the rest of your augmented life!
Scott: Better to kill her now and get it over with.
New Worlds presented the Gorn in a poor light. It is trying to make them into a horror show mindless monster not an advance space fairing race, they are. You can be evil an not act like a mindless beast. It made them fast moving instead of slow , strong, powerfully built and intelligent specie. I am not of fan of eggs in the body, or spitting eggs, and busting out of the body. It is all the makings of mindless monsters...
Nah, the SNW Gorn are great.
Why!!? They just Saturday afternoon monster movie, now... Nothing that could have fought Kirk... Just a beast...
Meh, if Kirk had faced one of these Gorn on that planet he'd have been lizard chow or a Gorn nursery. The opportunity that he had to outthink and outplan it resulted from his ability to outrun it.
The Gorn were always inhumane and vicious. Now, they're dangerous and even more remote.
The Gorn were always inhumane and vicious. Now, they're dangerous and even more remote.
The Gorn may not be human and are inhumane but they are not horror movie stuff... They are a specie that can challenge the Federation for other worlds...
Why not both? Are not humans capable of great savagery and space travel?
And their military effectiveness has been demonstrated in SNW.
BTW, their ability to "challenge the Federation for other worlds" was not demonstrated in "Arena." Only that they had the cunning to pull off a sneak attack on a defenseless colony, and outrun a Federation starship for awhile. Hell, even their attempt to ambush the Enterprise failed.
Fans confuse the behavior that the Gorn displayed in that episode with all the stuff they've made up and projected onto them since.
It's been a long-standing idea in Trek tie-in materials that there are multiple 'types' of Gorn within their Hegemony. Any apparent differences from what we knew or thought we knew about the Gorn could be explained in that context. SNW episode writer Davy Perez commented on how he felt that "Arena" allowed for some wiggle room as "the creature the Metrons called a Gorn" could have been different from expectations Kirk may have had based on rumors of previous encounters. Personally, I kind of like the idea that the monstrous Gorn we saw in SNW are a kind of genetically engineered berserker or "super soldier" or whatever, perhaps used by the Hegemony on the front lines of their conflicts. I'm interested in seeing what else we may learn about the Gorn in upcoming seasons.
And the Klingons eating Georgiou has already been discussed to death... Why, exactly, is it so farfetched? Even among humans, there have been plenty of examples of cannibalism throughout history and pre-history and into the modern day, whether in a ritualistic context or during times of extreme starvation, or arising from pathology on the part of the perpetrator. For instance, up to 30,000 people were reportedly eaten during the Siege of Suiyang in the eighth century. And Klingons are supposed to be more savage than humans. We already know that Klingons have no qualms about eating the raw hearts and livers of their defeated enemies. So it's really not a stretch that if they were starving, and enemy bodies were at their disposal, they would use them as a food source. And technically, it's not really cannibalism since they're not eating their own species.
Kor
And the Klingons eating Georgiou has already been discussed to death... Why, exactly, is it so farfetched? Even among humans, there have been plenty of examples of cannibalism throughout history and pre-history and into the modern day, whether in a ritualistic context or during times of extreme starvation, or arising from pathology on the part of the perpetrator. For instance, up to 30,000 people were reportedly eaten during the Siege of Suiyang in the eighth century. And Klingons are supposed to be more savage than humans. We already know that Klingons have no qualms about eating the raw hearts and livers of their defeated enemies. So it's really not a stretch that if they were starving, and enemy bodies were at their disposal, they would use them as a food source. And technically, it's not really cannibalism since they're not eating their own species.
Kor
Apparently, Young Gorn are. (which is now part of Trek's continuity)
And it obviously depends on the host body that the young brood is deposited in.
For all we know the TOS Gorn that Kirk faced could have come from a sloth-like alien host body.
It also seems that the Gorn are not all that particular about who the host body is.
Addendum:
Based on what we've seen so far in SNW, it may just be that the Gorn have found that Humans are the perfect host for developing a brood that may be vicious, intelligent and adaptable to many environments at the same time.
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Something else that should be noted about "Arena" is that it's not a story about two enemies finding common ground.
There's not even a suggestion that Gorn Captain reciprocates Kirk's epiphany about possibly having been in the wrong, and the Metron explicitly says that G.C. would not have spared Kirk had their positions been reversed.
There's vague talk and suggestions in later-set Trek about some kind of accommodation with the Gorn, but nothing so concrete or specific as to make clear how this might have come to pass.
Also - and this is trivial, but make of it what you will - Sisko refers to asking Kirk "about fighting the Gorn on Cestus III [sic]" - very singular, there, and peculiar phrasing in the present context. No one talks, after all, about having "fought the Klingon on Organia."
There's not even a suggestion that Gorn Captain reciprocates Kirk's epiphany about possibly having been in the wrong, and the Metron explicitly says that G.C. would not have spared Kirk had their positions been reversed.
There's vague talk and suggestions in later-set Trek about some kind of accommodation with the Gorn, but nothing so concrete or specific as to make clear how this might have come to pass.
Also - and this is trivial, but make of it what you will - Sisko refers to asking Kirk "about fighting the Gorn on Cestus III [sic]" - very singular, there, and peculiar phrasing in the present context. No one talks, after all, about having "fought the Klingon on Organia."
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Yes I thought it very stupid and it made them into uncivilized savages and also how did they breed before star travel..
Can species only be civilized?
I never thought that was the point at all. If you want to make an "anti racist" episode, you don't start with the characters slaughtering an outpost full of innocent people.
The point of 'Arena" was that Kirk's revenge was a bad thing. You don't just hunt people down and murder them because they wronged you.
The Gorn have always been evil bastards. Always.
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