Spoilers The Gorn should sue this show

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Strange New Worlds' started by Charles Phipps, May 5, 2022.

  1. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The whole point of "Arena" is that the Gorn despite their intimidating appearance are nothing more than another race like the Federation and that they should be treated as no different than Kirk or company. It's an anti-racism aesop.

    Now we're getting them laying their eggs in people and eating humans.
     
  2. Harpsichord

    Harpsichord Commander Red Shirt

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    The Gorn murdered every man, woman, and child in the Cestus III colony and then attacked Kirk and co. unprovoked when they came to investigate. Never once tried to open communications... and they're 'like the Federation'?
     
  3. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Struck me as more like the Cardassians than the Federation.
     
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  4. Kaelef

    Kaelef Commander Red Shirt

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    Coincidentally, I just rewatched that episode a few nights ago, and it struck me that they were way too easy on the Gorn. Particularly since they deliberately tricked the Enterprise into going to Cestus III by faking a message. (I put the blame on some wonky writing or maybe editing in that otherwise memorable episode.)
     
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  5. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, Kirk FLAT OUT says that it might have gone down the same way in "Arena." Probably because the assumption was it was an invasion not a colony.

    It's easy to assume the Gorn took it to be a forward base.
     
  6. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Kirk flat out says what exactly in "Arena"?
     
  7. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Let's go back (and I admit I remembered some dialogue wrong)

    http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/19.htm

    GORN [OC]: You were intruding! You established an outpost in our space.
    KIRK [on viewscreen]: You butchered helpless human beings
    GORN [OC]: We destroyed invaders, as I shall destroy you!
    MCCOY: Can that be true? Was Cestus Three an intrusion on their space?
    SPOCK: It may well be possible, Doctor. We know very little about that section of the galaxy.
    MCCOY: Then we could be in the wrong.
    SPOCK: Perhaps. That is something best decided by diplomats.
    MCCOY: The Gorn simply might have been trying to protect themselves.
    SPOCK: Yes.
    (They watch as Kirk returns to the bamboo clump and picks out a short, wide stem.)
     
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  8. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Moving ahead to what Kirk says [http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/19.htm]:

    KIRK: No. No, I won't kill you. Maybe you thought you were protecting yourself when you attacked the outpost.​

    So, regardless of who was saying it, nowhere is it said in "Arena" that the Federation would have or might have acted similarly, had the roles been reversed, if that's what you were implying. It's only said that the Federation could have been in the wrong and basically that the Gorn's behavior was understandable on that basis.
     
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  9. Noname Given

    Noname Given Admiral Admiral

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    And actually, La'an's backstory FIXES a interesting issue with TOS S1 "Arena" in that - In the opening Teaser Kirk is conversing with (supposedly Commodore Travers live over a ground to surface radio link in the 1701 Transporter Room:
    http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/19.htm
    So yeah, to be able to do that the Gorn seemed to have A LOT of specific info on Starfleet that I doubt they got from the base as from later dialogue in "Arena" the Gorn just wiped everything on the Base out completely. The Base even offered to surrender, but the Gorn just kept going and killed everyone and destroyed everything. So yeah, the Gorn had to get that info from somewhere - and it appears it was by capturing Star Fleet ships that ventured into their space.

    And YES; Kirk decided not to kill the Gorn, and (presumably) later, a diplomatic dialogue was established - but during the incident, The Gorn Captain seemed to have no qualms about killing Kirk (and the Enterprise) - to wit:

    So yeah...No...IMO, the Gorn (even AFTER obtaining a lot of personal and personnel info - enough to make many a convincing message to lure the 1701 there; the Gorn intent was to test/destroy Federation/Star Fleet military tech capability. With all the info they obviously had - IF the Gorn wanted to open a diplomatic dialogue with the Federation/Star Fleet, they could have done so before the Cestus III massacre. Hell, they could have arranged via the staff on Cestus III.

    I did the above as this thread doesn't have a spoiler tag. :)
     
  10. BillJ

    BillJ Former Democrat Premium Member

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    None of the CBS shows handle this kind of stuff well. This was going for gross for the sake of being gross. The Gorn are no longer misunderstood aliens, they are monsters.
     
  11. Yistaan

    Yistaan Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Here's a hint, maybe not all Gorn all the same, like not all humans are the same. There are good Gorn and bad Gorn. La'an unfortunately got captured by a gang of bad ones. Heck, this might even come into play in a future episode when La'an meets some good Gorn.
     
  12. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    While a patch, I'd love for example if the Gorn didn't realize they were sentient.
     
  13. BillJ

    BillJ Former Democrat Premium Member

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    Since the Metron was going to kill him and his crew if he lost, I'd probably been in the same mindframe as he was. Most would. It was what the Metron's expected from both sides, which is why they said humans had potential. Likely why they called mercy an "advanced trait".
     
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  14. Noname Given

    Noname Given Admiral Admiral

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    That was part of a repose to the original poster in this thread - who posited "The Gorn are just like the Federation (IE - Humans)..."; and yeah, obviously not. :)
     
  15. BillJ

    BillJ Former Democrat Premium Member

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    They are and they aren't. One of the long running conceits of Star Trek is that every alien represents a facet of humanity.
     
  16. Norsehound

    Norsehound Captain Captain

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    I just hope whatever handwave the show does to keep the canon purists happy isn't as awkward as the lines dropped around S2 about the Klingons and why they were different.

    I say bring on the Gorn. They're the last of the major TOS races that haven't had the show spotlight after fifty years. I don't care about the particulars of Arena; I'd happy sacrifice it to showcase this interesting and unsettling race of reptiles more.
     
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  17. Harpsichord

    Harpsichord Commander Red Shirt

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    The Gorn were actively trying to lure, kill, and destroy Kirk and the Enterprise before the Metrons even intervened. As @Noname Given pointed out they are impersonating the Commodore (that they killed!) right up until the seconds before Kirk beams down. You can't say they only wanted to kill them because of the Metrons' threat.

    And if anything Kirk's mercy is more meaningful if the Gorn actually do act like horrible monsters. If their actions were totally justified then whoop-de-doo Kirk was merciful towards someone who anyone should have shown mercy towards.

    And Dr. McCoy have you been hitting that Kentucky bourbon a little too hard?

    "Can that be true? Was Cestus Three an intrusion on their space? Then we could be in the wrong."

    You cannot be in the wrong when someone tries to lure you somewhere to murder you, McCoy! What are you even talking about? Better question: why didn't the Enteprise's sensors pick up that the colony was destroyed and everyone was dead? They just happily beamed their Captain and First Officer into a charnel house. :lol:
     
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  18. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Admiral Admiral

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    What lines? Season 2 never explained it. There was one off line mentioning the Klingons are growing back their hair but it never said why they were bald in the first place.

    There were comments from actors and the make up designer, but nothing in the actual episode.
     
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  19. thribs

    thribs Vice Admiral Admiral

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    They’re the Magog now? :)
     
  20. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The what now?