Is it split? A majority of of the votes are above 60%.
Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 1x08 - "The Elysian Kingdom"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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I was just rewatching a few parts of the episode because I was tired yesterday and my brain didn't remember small details as well. And I'm not convinced that Deborah's desire for the joining solution was the best or only choice, because her perspective in the episode is rather simplistic. I'll have to disagree to an extent.
It reminds me of the plot in TNG's "The Bonding" when Jeremy was orphaned and the alien intelligence tried to make amends for his mother's death by creating a sentient facsimile, one who could (in many ways) do all the things Marla Astor could do and some stuff she couldn't. But this facsimile could only live in proximity to the planet, which means Jeremy would have to live with her. Is it logical for the Enterprise crew to have just said "Okay, that's cool. He'll be fine." ?
Deborah (is that the correct spelling?
) has a similar motivation. She clearly understands Rukiya's feelings of loneliness and sadness as a result of being sick, and wants to help, but she openly states that the needs of the remaining crew are "inconsequential." And I think there's a fair point that Rukiya, being young, is not in the best position to consider all her options either. She doesn't seem to be aware of how the fantasy disrupts the ship, even it's only meant to be a game.If Deborah has the knowledge necessary to inhibit the disease (which isn't expressly stated in the ep, only that her proximity can somehow do so), why not teach this knowledge to M'Benga? She specifically states that the problem is how the disease destroys the physical body.
That would certainly seem easier and safer than my suggestion of borrowing a piece of the nebula, which of course is only a possibility anyway. It might not be a workable solution. Like the Marla recreation in TNG, she doesn't seem to understand that her good intentions are potentially harmful or that there are other solutions to consider.
Perhaps the writers intended her perspective to be limited, since presumably she doesn't interact much with other beings. We don't get a lot of detail on Deborah's abilities and I think it would have worked better if they'd expanded some of that as part of the early framework. But that's me.
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Jeremy wasn't minutes away from dying.I was just rewatching a few parts of the episode because I was tired yesterday and my brain didn't remember small details as well. And I'm not convinced that Deborah's desire for the joining solution was the best or only choice, because her perspective in the episode is rather simplistic. I'll have to disagree to an extent.
It reminds me of the plot in TNG's "The Bonding" when Jeremy was orphaned and the alien intelligence tried to make amends for his mother's death by creating a sentient facsimile, one who could (in many ways) do all the things Marla Astor could do and some stuff she couldn't. But this facsimile could only live in proximity to the planet, which means Jeremy would have to live with her. Is it logical for the Enterprise crew to have just said "Okay, that's cool. He'll be fine." ?
Deborah (is that the correct spelling?
If Deborah has the knowledge necessary to inhibit the disease (which isn't expressly stated in the ep, only that her proximity can somehow do so), why not teach this knowledge to M'Benga? She specifically states that the problem is how the disease destroys the physical body.
That would certainly seem easier and safer than my suggestion of borrowing a piece of the nebula, which of course is only a possibility anyway. It might not be a workable solution. Like the Marla recreation in TNG, she doesn't seem to understand that her good intentions are potentially harmful or that there are other solutions to consider.
Perhaps the writers intended her perspective to be limited, since presumably she doesn't interact much with other beings. We don't get a lot of detail on Deborah's abilities and I think it would have worked better if they'd expanded some of that as part of the early framework. But that's me.
Those are the things that get me.Deborah (is that the correct spelling?
There's evidence in the episode that Deborah doesn't understand the needs of the crew or is concerned about their safety. Hemmer says Deborah was "not gentle" and could've killed him. We saw the jeopardy the crew was in. Sword fights. Arrows. Etc.
Similarly, there's evidence that Rukiya didn't understand the danger in which Deborah put the crew and ship. She watched the whole thing and asks her dad if he had "fun," clearly not comprehending the danger.
The lack of trying to gain information from Deborah was also disappointing.
At any rate, I agree with your comments. Well said!
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I think it depends. I think if the episode landed better with the serious beats that would be more tolerated...maybe.
Personally, I enjoy humorous episodes when they're done well. However, this particular one had enough other issues for me that I couldn't buy into what was supposed to be a dramatic ending.
I think we roughly agree on this episode. So, I guess I'm agreeing with your sentiment that it depends.
I think even if it was done well it would be dissected within an inch of existence and found wanting. If not for humor then something else.
As it stands, this episode commits the most egregious sin by just being average.
I like Ferengi episodes in DS9, love original Tribbles and Trial and Tribbilations. Absolutely love the Benny eps and Bride of Chaotica in Voy.
You (plural) conflate disliking this episode with disliking fun.
There’s also great fun totally aside from purported humor. Where No Man Has Gone Before and Year of Hell are great fun, but not full of “humor” much less overacted Princess Bride camp.
We paint with broad brushes and overgeneralizations here so much.
You (plural) conflate disliking this episode with disliking fun.
There’s also great fun totally aside from purported humor. Where No Man Has Gone Before and Year of Hell are great fun, but not full of “humor” much less overacted Princess Bride camp.
We paint with broad brushes and overgeneralizations here so much.
I'll disagree with the first sentence. Most people seem to like SNW as a whole and this particular episode as well. So, I don't see the "dissection" you mention, at least not on the whole. But, yeah, I thought this one was average.
I'm not. I'm observing patterns and finding commonalities in likes and dislikes.
I stand by what I said. Looking at the story and saying it should have done this or that is dissecting in my book.
Regardless, y'all be here next week.
No, but he'd lost his immediate family and was feeling deep emotional pain. To a child who's lost both parents that way, it feels much like dying (or alternatively, that dying would be preferable to living with the pain even if you can't admit that openly). The Enterprise crew was sympathetic but there's a limit to how far their efforts can go, and because Jeremy was a kid it's not like he was able to look after himself.
Part of the reason "The Bonding" has worked for me is that it addresses the fact that allowing the Marla alien to give him a fantasy to counteract his grief - however well intended - is not the best solution for Jeremy to heal, while also acknowledging that he's not alone. He doesn't have to deal with the loss entirely on his own, because humans value community.
Wesley lost his father on a mission Picard commanded, and is finally able to admit that for a long time he was bitter over that. Picard came home and his father didn't. But when he understood the circumstances of that tragedy better, he learned to accept his loss and to forgive Picard instead of blaming him. Worf was likewise in command of the mission where Marla was killed, purely accidentally, but he has his own guilt over that. And like Jeremy, he had the pain of losing his family at a young age (and as an outsider in human culture, no less
).That's not to say, of course, that one couldn't do a version of this story where the fantasy aspect couldn't work.
Where Jeremy, under different circumstances, might have chosen to stay with her at least for a time. The Marla alien genuinely wants to do a good thing, but her initial approach is too simplistic and convenient. Once she learns that Jeremy can survive in his own way and that he still has people who care a great deal about him, she accepts that choice. And I think it's a good resolution without making the alien's efforts seem entirely misguided or trivial.
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Perhaps, but we're still comparing apples and oranges. I don't think we'll find a neat resolution that will satisfy both parties on this one.No, but he'd lost his immediate family and was feeling deep emotional pain. To a child who's lost both parents that way, it feels much like dying (or alternatively, that dying would be preferable to living with the pain even if you can't admit that openly). The Enterprise crew was sympathetic but there's a limit to how far their efforts can go, and because Jeremy was a kid it's not like he was able to look after himself.
Part of the reason "The Bonding" has worked for me is that it addresses the fact that allowing the Marla alien to give him a fantasy to counteract his grief - however well intended - is not the best solution for Jeremy to heal, while also acknowledging that he's not alone. He doesn't have to deal with the loss entirely on his own, because humans value community.
Wesley lost his father on a mission Picard commanded, and is finally able to admit that for a long time he was bitter over that. Picard came home and his father didn't. But when he understood the circumstances of that tragedy better, he learned to accept his loss and to forgive Picard instead of blaming him. Worf was likewise in command of the mission where Marla was killed, purely accidentally, but he has his own guilt over that. And like Jeremy, he had the pain of losing his family at a young age (and as an outsider in human culture, no less
That's not to say, of course, that one couldn't do a version of this story where the fantasy aspect couldn't work.
That's just differences in opinions. You can take any given work, book, series, etc. and there will always be a range of opinions. There's nothing out there that everyone will like.
So, what you call "dissection," I call opinions. There will always be dissenting opinions. But the fact remains that the general consensus is that SNW has been a great series. Additionally, the majority of people like this particular episode.
Yes, there are critiques. There are certainly parts of this episode that I didn't care for, and I've elaborated on those. But this is a discussion board! If we all just agreed and said how great it all was, it would be boring.
I just don't buy into the idea of equating critical comments with unwarranted "dissection." Shoot, there have been episodes of SNW that I've absolutely loved but I'd see a few negative comments. They don't get me down. Just another perspective.
Fascinating. You associate dissection with a very negative view.
Humans of the future no longer fear death.
*snort*
But seriously, the show is very clear that there's not vast numbers of stasis fields with dying people. They do not practice cryonics in the future. Just put it up there with reversing aging with the transporter.
