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Eddington's vitriolic assessment of The Federation

I'm saying that if its a choice between living a life of luxury with no purpose and you can go build a new life, yes, that is very appealing.

How are the people on typical Federation worlds/space habitats living with "no purpose"? Also, I would counter that luxury is relative; the twenty-fourth century standard of living is luxurious to us, yes, but ordinary to them. People of the future would observe our milieu - struggling to put food on the table and going bankrupt over necessary surgeries - and deem our existence "barbaric" or "brutal"...perhaps "exploitative".
 
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How are the people on typical Federation worlds/space habitats living with "no purpose"? Also, I would counter that luxury is relative; the twenty-fourth century standard of living is luxurious to us, yes, but ordinary to them. People of the future would observe our milieu - struggling to put food on the table and going bankrupt over necessaries surgeries - and deem our existence "barbaric" or "brutal"...perhaps "exploitative".

I feel like you either believe people would put accomplishment over comfort or you don't.
 
PICARD: This is the twenty fourth century. Material needs no longer exist.
RALPH: Then what's the challenge?
PICARD: The challenge, Mister Offenhouse, is to improve yourself. To enrich yourself. Enjoy it.

You don't need to colonize a planet to improve or enrich yourself.

PICARD: The economics of the future are somewhat different. ...You see, money doesn't exist in the twenty-fourth century.
LILY: No money! That means you don't get paid.
PICARD: The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. ...We work to better ourselves ...and the rest of humanity. Actually we're rather like yourself and Doctor Cochrane.
 
I'm saying that if its a choice between living a life of luxury with no purpose and you can go build a new life, yes, that is very appealing.
That is not a choice that needs to be made. Not now, and not in the Federation. ("Luxury" has connotations that don't necessarily always apply to Federation citizens, but I assume we're talking about comfort as opposed to ostentatious wealth.)
 
That is not a choice that needs to be made. Not now, and not in the Federation. ("Luxury" has connotations that don't necessarily always apply to Federation citizens, but I assume we're talking about comfort as opposed to ostentatious wealth.)

I'm mostly commenting on the fact that I think there would be no end of people who would go to the colonies in the Federation to build a new life away from the luxury and security of the Federation.
 
Am I the only one on this forum who actually like Michael Eddington?

In fact, I think he was doing the right thing. I left Starfleet to become a Freedom Fighter when his home colony was threatened and the colonists attacked by the Cardassians.

I can undertstand him in many ways.

I also think that he had some points when it came to his criticism of The Federation even if I actually like the way the Federation is functioning and it's laws, including the Prime Directive.

But I must admit that The federation actually acted shamefully when the abandoned those colonies and its inhabitants. Not to mention that the Cardassians did thank The federation by joining the Dominion and declare war against the Federation later on.
 
The federation signed a mutually agreed peace contract which included compromises.
Did they like those compromises? Not much, but that’s the nature of a compromise. You grind your teeth and make the best of it.
The moment Cardassia decided, to start a new war and break the contract, I don’t think the Federation kept abiding to the compromises anymore. But they wouldn’t and couldn’t break it first.
 
The Federation was trying to interfere in the foreign policy and military choices the colonies were making in regards to the Cardassians. That is interfering in their self-determination.

The colonies didn't have any self-determination for the Federation to interfere with. They were first a possession of the Federation, then later a possession of the Cardassian Union

Eddington's argument distracts from the fact that he is ethically absolutely in the correct. We're right now in the middle of a conflict where a hostile force is invading people's homeland and they are fighting back thanks to the resources being given them from the outside. This sort of situation has happened throughout history and the Maquis are pretty much no different than the Free French fighting against the Nazis.

Sisko's disgust with Eddington is the fact that he's chosen to side with the Maquis over Starfleet but the fact is that Starfleet is bending over backwards to preserve a truce with a race that is explictly BASED on the Nazis. Sisko shouts, "They need a negotiated peace!"

However, his argument falls apart with the fact that they HAD a negotiated peace.

And the Cardssians broke it.
How did the Cardassians break the peace? I thought that was the USS Sutherland (which Picard managed to smooth over) and later the Maquis?

The Cardassians had a negotiated peace with Bajor.

And the Cardassians broke it.
When and how was that?

I mean the problem with Sisko's anger at Eddington is that he's right next to a terrorist freedom fighter named Kira who had a long and lengthy struggle against the same government using asymetrical warfare. Would he be every bit as disgusted if Bashir or O'Brian had left Starfleet to join the fight to liberate Bajor?

Probably I think.

Probably more so: he took it very personally, so if the betrayal was by someone closer to him, he probably would have felt the resulting anger more fully.

The Enterprise does appear and I have proof. John Eaves posted pics on Facebook awhile ago of Picard's "you broke your little ships" models which were made for First Contact and added to for the subsequent movies and season 3 of Star Trek: Picard.

It features the Strange New Worlds NCC-1701, and even the V.S.S. Enterprise. Link. Who knew golden model ships would give it away? (John Eaves must have realised because the original FB post was deleted)

I thought that was Eaves' personal collection. there are at least two of the Enterprise-A, plus the Eaglemoss versions.

I'd argue that's the confusing part. Nechayev and Sisko state they're still Federation citizens and subject to their laws.

...NECHEYEV: I'm aware of that, Commander. We never should've allowed those colonists to remain on the Cardassian side of the Demilitarised zone.
...
NECHEYEV: You do that. And Commander, I want you to find the Maquis. Talk to them. Remind them that they're citizens of the Federation. That it is imperative that we preserve the treaty with the Cardassians.
SISKO: A treaty the Cardassians may not be honouring.
NECHEYEV: Are you questioning Federation policy, Commander?
SISKO: All I know is that the situation in the Demilitarised zone is deteriorating rapidly.
NECHEYEV: Personally, I think you're overstating the problem. Establish a dialogue with the Maquis. They're still Federation citizens. I'm sure they'll listen to reason. Good luck, Commander.

I think she's saying that they're "racially" Federation citizens (of whatever species or skin colour), and as such are "superior" to other species such as Cardassians, Ferengi, or Klingons.

So how does conalizing a planet work?
If fed citizens go to planet X to form a colony, does it automatically become a federation planet? Protectorate status maybe? If a private group goes out without say Federation colony movers help, are they still citizens?

At what point does it become its own planet with its own government with rule over the solar system? Say like territorial waters?
My limited understanding the real-world process is that they would be overseas possessions of the state the colonists came from until they secede from that state

The lands of north America were variously English, French and Spanish until they (at various points nd methods) became what is now the United States.

Were the border colonys independent but settled by citizens? .

Federation sold them out probably without even asking this planets opinion.. There rightfully pissed

Also. If the Admiral is saying there still citizens, then they have an obligation to Protect said citizens from harm. Not just tell them to behave.

I think good real world analogies might be Guam for the US or the Falkland Islands for the UK. While largely self-governing on a day-to-day basis, they are overseas possessions of the respective countries. The US might secede possession of Guam to Australia in the peace process after a hypothetical conflict between the two; the circumstances would decide what, if any, say the population of Guam might have in the matter.

A lot of this story does remind me a European attitudes splitting up the middle-east in the wake of WWI; including Nechayez's assumption of racial superiority. I don't know how deliberate this was on the part of the writers, or whether it was mimicing prevaliing US values at the time.

dJE
 
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The federation signed a mutually agreed peace contract which included compromises.
Did they like those compromises? Not much, but that’s the nature of a compromise. You grind your teeth and make the best of it.
The moment Cardassia decided, to start a new war and break the contract, I don’t think the Federation kept abiding to the compromises anymore. But they wouldn’t and couldn’t break it first.
I seem to remember it being at least hinted that the Federation took possession of Cardassian colonies in the treaty as well (I presume, the intention was to regularise the border, rather than have the confusion of Cardassian land that would otherwise be deep within Federation territory - or the reverse).

dJE
 
I seem to remember it being at least hinted that the Federation took possession of Cardassian colonies in the treaty as well (I presume, the intention was to regularise the border, rather than have the confusion of Cardassian land that would otherwise be deep within Federation territory - or the reverse).

dJE

Yes, it's explicitly stated that both Cardassian worlds and Federation worlds were impacted by the treaty.

As to the question of whether the Maquis were Federation citizens, to me the easiest explanation is that it was people who were not colonists but were joining or supporting the Maquis while still Federation citizens, in addition to those colonists who took up the cause.

Ro Laren, for instance, would have been a Federation citizen at the time when she started assisting the Maquis.
 
Middle East is a good take on it.
After WW1 had some random British people draw random lines on a map. Never taking into account tribal lands, ethnic borders, natural borders etc. With zero input of the residents.

Alot if the violence in the M E was caused by those borders, ethnic and tribal conflict within a country that are somewhat forced to get along.

I would think that like say Jihad brides that go over would automatically loose there citizenship.
 
@valkyrie013 @Charles Phipps It is bizarre enough that they would leave the comforts of an already populated planet such as earth to live there. Many speak of how poor the living conditions are there.

It would be as strange as that a man were to pack up from Copenhagen, to go live in the middle of the Sahara. — Surely no one would do so?
is it so different from people risking weeks long trips be sea to colonize North America or Australia 200-100 years ago? There are people that decide to "quit" modern society and go live in the woods in a cabin. Maybe not your extreme example of moving to the sahara but people do still voluntarily choose to live a more "primitive" or harder lifestyle.
 
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is it so different from people risking weeks long trips be sea to colonize North America or Australia? There are people that decide to "quit" modern society and go live in the woods in a cabin. Maybe not your extreme example of moving to the sahara but people do still voluntarily choose to live a more "primitive" or harder lifestyle.
Those that did so were paid handsomely by their employees to find gold and “trade” with the local population.
In that sense it is not much different from working on a drilling platform. I doubt they would have done so to live there of the land away from civilization for no financial compensation.
 
There are people that decide to "quit" modern society and go live in the woods in a cabin. Maybe not your extreme example of moving to the sahara but people do still voluntarily choose to live a more "primitive" or harder lifestyle.

I would be curious to find out how many of them make do without any provisions which require an industrial base (artificially generated electricity, at the minimum) to manufacture as opposed to those that live a hermetic lifestyle but with modern day luxuries to make the experience somewhat bearable. Primitive medicine sucks.
 
So how does conalizing a planet work?
If fed citizens go to planet X to form a colony, does it automatically become a federation planet? Protectorate status maybe? If a private group goes out without say Federation colony movers help, are they still citizens?

At what point does it become its own planet with its own government with rule over the solar system? Say like territorial waters?

Were the border colonys independent but settled by citizens? .

Federation sold them out probably without even asking this planets opinion.. There rightfully pissed

Also. If the Admiral is saying there still citizens, then they have an obligation to Protect said citizens from harm. Not just tell them to behave.

The FASA Trekverse assumed that many Federation worlds were associate (and not full) members, meaning they didn't have full responsibilities and representation on the Federation Council but did enjoy protection from Starfleet against hostile nations and other benefits like trade. The option to become full members was available if the governments of those worlds wanted to pursue it.

There were also some colonies in the Triangle (where the borders of Fed, Klingon and Romulan space intersected) composed of humans and other Federation species, some of whom were independent governments that would occasionally ally with Federation interests or assist Starfleet directly. One world was populated by humans whose ship had crashed during the Romulan War and decided to make a living there.

FASA also had a module where the Organians allowed the Klingons and the Federation to both place settlers on Sherman's World, with the proviso that neither group could be directly influenced by its respective government. When the probationary period expired, the world could vote on which side it wanted to formally join.
 
So how does conalizing a planet work?
If fed citizens go to planet X to form a colony, does it automatically become a federation planet? Protectorate status maybe? If a private group goes out without say Federation colony movers help, are they still citizens?

At what point does it become its own planet with its own government with rule over the solar system? Say like territorial waters?

Were the border colonys independent but settled by citizens? .

Federation sold them out probably without even asking this planets opinion.. There rightfully pissed

Also. If the Admiral is saying there still citizens, then they have an obligation to Protect said citizens from harm. Not just tell them to behave.

The writers understandably wanted to stay away from the nitty gritty of how new colonies are formed. My interpretation is that if colonists want to form a new colony and have the Federation protect it, they've got to ask permission first. Otherwise you'd get colonists going to colonize the system next to the Klingon homeworld and still demanding a dozen starships show up within the hour to defend them when the Klingons attack.

Such colonists could still be Federation citizens, but that doesn't mean they don't have to suffer any consequences if they do something against the law of some other species wherever they settled.
 
PICARD: This is the twenty fourth century. Material needs no longer exist.

Which is of course bollocks to begin with. Of course they still exist, and if Picard thinks they don't, they should maroon him for a week to a desert planet without food or drink. Humans haven't evolved beyond that.
I suppose Picard meant to say that under any normal conditions, these are usually satisfied without having to work for them.
 
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