Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Ragitsu, May 10, 2022.
I'm down with that.
The question was in regards to being a Federation citizen.
What freedoms are given up when being a Federation citizen?
The flags are apparently meant to simply show that there is at least one Bajoran in the graduating class.
I mean in the Maquis, it is your ability to live on the colonies of the border. In this case, the Federation says to leave because the treaty is giving up your home to the Cardies. It's a pretty elemental and traditional reason for revolt.
Well that's a bit disappointing.
I did suspect that maybe I got tripped up over the double negatives.
I think what he meant is that no-one will perhaps stop you from leaving the Federation, but people will frown on you - nobody in his or her sound mind would ever think of leaving the Federation! It's the implied judgement- which you also sometimes see in the real world when people are leaving their country for another that is deemed 'worse' by the left-behinds. It is also in my view, in essence, the same point Quark and Garak are making during their root beer conversation, except that they are looking from the outside point 'threatened' to be drawn in ('the worst part is you are beginning to like it after some time'), and Eddington looks at it from an insider vehemently trying to leave it. I think that in itself, he has some point here. Cultural dominance is a thing and not all people like it.
Otherwise, I agree with you he is full of shit - exaggerating it tremendously by comparing it to Borg assimilation, having a grandiose sense of self-importance, a desire to be a 'hero' in his own scripted story, and so on.
I think there's a good question whether or not the Maquis believed they had pursued independence but the Federation kept acting like they were still Federation citizens and were subject to Federation judgement. Which the Federation considered to be a protection from just being massacred by the Cardassians from their perspective.
Remember, most of these colonists don't want to live anywhere near Earth or under its laws to begin with.
Except that it was the colonists' idea to live under Cardassian rule in the first place, as "Journey's End" established.
Now of course this is not meant to excuse the Cardassians' later actions, but it puts paid to the notion that the colonists were simply handed over without choice.
I'd argue that's the confusing part. Nechayev and Sisko state they're still Federation citizens and subject to their laws.
NECHEYEV: The Maquis are a bunch of irresponsible hotheads.
SISKO: These hotheads are responsible for the bombing of the Bok'Nor.
NECHEYEV: I'm aware of that, Commander. We never should've allowed those colonists to remain on the Cardassian side of the Demilitarised zone.
SISKO: Well they're there, Admiral, and they're not leaving.
NECHEYEV: What about Commander Hudson? He's lived with these people. What's his analysis of the situation?
SISKO: I'll have to ask him.
NECHEYEV: You do that. And Commander, I want you to find the Maquis. Talk to them. Remind them that they're citizens of the Federation. That it is imperative that we preserve the treaty with the Cardassians.
SISKO: A treaty the Cardassians may not be honouring.
NECHEYEV: Are you questioning Federation policy, Commander?
SISKO: All I know is that the situation in the Demilitarised zone is deteriorating rapidly.
NECHEYEV: Personally, I think you're overstating the problem. Establish a dialogue with the Maquis. They're still Federation citizens. I'm sure they'll listen to reason. Good luck, Commander.
(Necheyev leaves and Kira comes up the stairs)
Which is, Federation?
To be fair though, the Dominion having a foot in the AQ wasn't really a thing yet when the Maquis started their rebellion. Also, IIRC, the Cardassians becoming a member of the Dominion came as an utter surprise to everyone- Sisko included.
I also think Cardassia would have joined in any circumstance - Maquis rebellion or not. The Dominion initially promised 'to extend Cardassia's influence throughout the quadrant' according to Damar's speech when he rebelled against the Dominion - and, well, Dukat would exactly have been the power hungry figure to go for that. He didn't just want to contain his losses - he wanted to gain influence.
A friend of mine said that Sisko never imagined that Dukat would choose to serve in Hell.
Which, of course, showed he was willing to easily transfer his allegiances as long as he was still powerful.
Central Command, Dominion, Pah Wraiths.
I think Dukat's plan was to 'use' the Dominion to gain a dominant position and then get rid of them. Remember that short exchange with Damar in Sacrifice of Angels?
Except that his ego made him miscalculate (not the only time) and Cardassia found out the hard way that the Dominion weren't the kind of people to mess around with.
That was an exceedingly poor choice of words to a man who lost his wife to the Borg. Was Eddington momentarily ignorant of proper rhetoric? Did he want to twist Sisko's guilt?
Federation member worlds are left to run their own local affairs as they see fit. The ONLY requirements laid down by Federation law, that all members must abide by, are:
- One world government
- No caste-based discrimination
That's basically it. So no freedoms are given up, and ALL freedoms are ensured. I'm honestly not seeing a downside here.
Weren't the cardassians using the DMZ and the Maquis rebellions as "proof' the Federation wasn't sincere in it's treaty? Cardassia decided that the DMZ was equivalent to "Sovereign Cardassian Space"
So they must not have given up their Federation citizenship, or had it rescinded by the Federation. In real life, countries have laws that they require their citizens to abide by even when they are outside their own borders. This could include stuff like human trafficking, engaging in trade with embargoed countries, supporting certain extremist organizations, etc. etc.
Where do they say that these are the only requirements? AFAIK, these are the only requirements we hear mentioned but there might be many more we simply haven't heard about.
I assume the Federation is to blame because the settlers were very clear they were living under Cardassian law in TNG.
If there ARE any other requirements for Federation membership, we haven't heard of them. And until that time, they don't exist. Simple as that.
Gosh, I get all giddy whenever a thread attempts to morph into "Sinister Starfleet"/"Fiendish Federation" .
You're also wrong as Picard tells Beverly that they could take a planetary government that isn't united with the rest of the world.
Separate names with a comma.