Eddington's vitriolic assessment of The Federation

[dupersuper]

Freedom of self-determination, I would imagine. The Federation was pretty hot-and-bothered to stop these colonies from leaving, IIRC

Not really. They advised them against it as they'd be in Cardassian territory, but colonies are allowed to leave the Federation whenever they like.

I think because the Federation keeps granting concessions to the Cardassians

Other than ceding some disputed planets along the border that the colonists were warned were contested for at least 2 decades leading up to the treaty, what concessions do the Federation "keep granting" them?

the Cardies.

Early 2370s Miles O'Brien, is that you?

Frankly, I agree with Eddington's assessment of the Federation.

Yet you...like Star trek? Is it like a Star Wars show about the stormtroopers for you?

 

[Charles Phipps]

Other than ceding some disputed planets along the border that the colonists were warned were contested for at least 2 decades leading up to the treaty, what concessions do the Federation "keep granting" them?

The Federation says the deal the Cardassians got was an incredibly lucrative one.

They then proceeded to continue to work against the Maquis while ignoring Cardassian violations of the treaty ("The Wounded", "For the Uniform").

 

[DonIago]

That it may have been a good treaty for the Cardassians doesn't inherently mean it was a bad treaty for the Federation.

 

[dupersuper]

Earth is a post-scarcity society with no disease, poverty, hunger, and war,

Well, no poverty, hunger, or war. People still get sick and die eventually.

If they have been there for two, three generations, improving the land and environment, it might be a slightly different matter. They'd have to start all over again on a new planet.

"My grandfather died building that aqueduct!"

The Federation says the deal the Cardassians got was an incredibly lucrative one.

Which could've just referred to the planets they got, not anything else the Federation "kept giving them". For all we know a Cardassian legat was saying the same thing about the Federation's good fortune in the treaty to a gul at the same time.

They then proceeded to continue to work against the Maquis while ignoring Cardassian violations of the treaty ("The Wounded", "For the Uniform").

I believe The Wounded was before this specific treaty. There they were violating the treaty after the border wars, afterwards they'd be violating the treaty from Chain of Command that freed Bajor. By For the Uniform the Dominion was looming and the Federation frankly had much bigger worries.

 

[Ragitsu]

It would be fair to say that diseases which originate on Earth are - collectively - far less of a factor in the twenty-fourth century, though. Foreign/extraterrestial microorganisms, however...those are another matter entirely.

 

[Captrek]

As we see with Siko, 900 million people died in the Dominion War because he was SO selfish that he wouldn't accept Dominion rule.

Only 900 million died in the Dominion War? 800 million Cardassians died in the last episode alone.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Only 900 million died in the Dominion War? 800 million Cardassians died in the last episode alone.

I mean 100 million is a pretty large amount for a Federation devastated by losing 10K at Wolf 359.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Yeah. That’s a lot. Considering we never saw anything equivalent of a nuke wiping out whole populations.
The Dominion seemed to rely solely on conventional warfare.

 

[Ragitsu]

We can assume the majority of those deaths occurred planetside, yes?

 

[Sci]

Frankly, I agree with Eddington's assessment of the Federation.

Yet you...like Star trek? Is it like a Star Wars show about the stormtroopers for you?

I think there's a lot of truth to what Eddington said, and also I love Star Trek. But he is correct when he says that the Federation is an expansionist power that is motivated by its desire to make every spacefaring culture part of itself, and he is correct when he says that the Federation is in denial about its desire to assimilate (politically and culturally, not in the Borg sense) every culture it encounters.

That doesn't mean that I think the Federation is evil or that life under Federation rule isn't preferable to most other forms of potential political organization. It doesn't mean I see Star Trek as the equivalent to a Star Wars show focusing on the Galactic Empire. But I do think the Federation should be evaluated with a less fawning, worshipful lens than TNG often presented it as. Star Trek can be about the Federation without thinking the Federation is without major flaws.

 

[Ragitsu]

TNG is very much a product of the eighties (barring near the series' end): naked optimism.
DS9 is very much a product of the nineties: dark anti-heroism.

Star Trek can be about the Federation without thinking the Federation is without major flaws.

...and yet it is still the best community in the galaxy. There are a handful of more technologically advanced civilizations, but they have not deigned to assist humanity; so, while certain species possess better toys, their insularity virtually requires them to be unwelcoming.

 

[Sci]

Star Trek can be about the Federation without thinking the Federation is without major flaws.

...and yet it is still the best community in the galaxy.

Well, the best of the major local powers, anyway. I'd find it hard to believe there's not a single planet that's maybe a bit nicer than the UFP in some respects. Illyria might be a very nice world and not have institutionalized prejudices against genetic augmentation, for instance!

There are a handful of more technologically advanced civilizations, but they have not deigned to assist humanity; so, while certain species possess better toys, their insularity virtually requires them to be unwelcoming.

Being insular does not make them inferior.

And none of that changes the objective fact that Eddington's characterization of the Federation as an expansionist power that seeks the voluntary assimilation of every culture it encounters is accurate.

Now, does that objective fact mean the Federation is "bad?" Well, Eddington thinks so. I don't. But I also think that the situation is a little more complicated than "thing bad" or "thing good." For that matter, I can sympathize with someone who doesn't think the Federation is bad but also thinks that the Federation should stop trying to assimilate other cultures and that this expansionist facet of Federation culture is really problematic.

And none of that means I don't love Star Trek or think the UFP doesn't represent transformative progress over what exists in the real world. It just means I think there's no such thing as a government without major flaws.

 

[Ragitsu]

Being insular does not make them inferior.

No one previously mentioned or implied "inferior". Their parochialism is distinctly contrary to a communal approach, though, that is for certain and adopting such a philosophy is disadvantageous if you're looking to raise the standard of living in a broader sense. Star Trek is quite clear on where it stands in regards to xenophobia, elitism, apathy and greed (all reasons that indicate why the advanced insular societies remain insular).

 

[Sci]

No one previously mentioned or implied "inferior". Their parochialism is distinctly contrary to a communal approach, though, that is for certain and adopting such a philosophy is disadvantageous if you're looking to raise the standard of living in a broader sense. Star Trek is quite clear on where it stands in regards to xenophobia, elitism, apathy and greed (all reasons that indicate why the advanced insular societies remain insular).

And what about those worlds that are not xenophobic, apathetic, or greedy, but simply do not want to be subsumed by Federation culture?

 

[Ragitsu]

And what about those worlds that are not xenophobic, apathetic, or greedy, but simply do not want to be subsumed by Federation culture?

Which of the more technologically advanced civilizations that aren't xenophobic, elitist, apathetic and/or greedy directly refused Federation membership on the grounds of cultural preservation? Note that I wasn't referring to the aliens so beyond the "mortal" races that their abilities may as well be magic (e.g., The Douwd or The Q).

 

[Sci]

Which of the more technologically advanced civilizations that aren't xenophobic, elitist, apathetic and/or greedy directly refused Federation membership on the grounds of cultural preservation?

The unnamed Native American nation that settled on Dorvan V, for one.

Also, the fact that Star Trek as a narrative is generally structured to frame the UFP as being idealized and superior and the polity that all good worlds would want to join is itself an indication that Star Trek generally has an unrealistic, culturally imperialist narrative perspective.

 

[Ragitsu]

The unnamed Native American nation that settled on Dorvan V, for one.

What tech? They seemed to be - at most - on par with The Federation.

 

[Sci]

What tech? They seemed to be - at most - on par with The Federation.

They were literally part of the Federation and then chose to leave because they felt the UFP would subsume their culture.

 

[Ragitsu]

Also, the fact that Star Trek as a narrative is generally structured to frame the UFP as being idealized and superior and the polity that all good worlds would want to join is itself an indication that Star Trek generally has an unrealistic, culturally imperialist narrative perspective.

Yeah...The Federation being awesome is kind of the central premise of Star Trek. A character that sounds like a right-wing caricature fixated on a narrow definition of freedom makes grand yet empty declarations about The Federation and people are supposed to nod their heads in agreement?

They were literally part of the Federation and then chose to leave because they felt the UFP would subsume their culture.

My original question concerns insular societies more technologically advanced than The Federation (e.g., The Voth).

 

[Sci]

Yeah...The Federation being awesome is kind of the central premise of Star Trek.

I think Star Trek can, and has, encompassed the idea that the Federation is broadly good and is much better than anything in real life today, but still has major problems. That's basically the POV of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, and is a major reason why it remains the greatest ST series ever.

A character that sounds like a right-wing caricature fixated on a narrow definition of freedom makes grand yet empty declarations about The Federation and people are supposed to nod their heads in agreement?

I don't think anything about Eddington's point of view maps onto contemporary right-wing politics. Contemporary right-wingers do not object to cultural imperialism.