Spoilers Strange New Worlds 1x01 - "Strange New Worlds"

[TRON JA307020]

Well, you do the math. 225,000 people at most versus millions. It's a hard calculation to make but invasion would've been worse, and might've ended with Japan split in twain.

Yup. Plus people when they make the argument that that US was wrong never quite that there were approximately 6 million news killed and total WWII loss of life about 45 million. Yeah the atomic bomb was horrific and it sucks that it came to that but I think people were tired of the war and the death and the bomb for better or worse finally ended it. People criticizing it today saying it was totally wrong didn't live in that time and have no idea how scared people were for years and how much death and destruction were carried out by the Axis powers before the atom bomb.

 

[TRON JA307020]

I suspect it is a universal trait, but sometimes it feels uniquely American how we can hold ourselves as greater evils than others by default. American exceptionalism has to mean we're exceptionally bad, too.

The dropping of the nukes on Japan was a monstrous act that was probably unjustifiable. But "America" didn't do it, especially not in perpetuity. The leadership of the government and military ordered it. Other people carried it out. I doubt BillJ and I agree on much, but feeling endless guilt about the acts of your forebears is useless. Being cognizant of those actions, learning from them, and avoiding the same pitfalls is what we should do. And to say we cannot comment on something because of historical wrongs is ridiculous. Are we supposed to ignore any German about the rise of fascism, like say in the United States or Russia, because Hitler? If so, how many centuries does that last? How much German do you have to be to qualify as guilty of Germany's sins?

Did you live through the years of the Thiird Reich, the Axus Powers and WWII?

 

[BillJ]

Yeah the atomic bomb was horrific and it sucks that it came to that but I think people were tired of the war and the death and the bomb for better or worse finally ended it.

It was part of the reason it ended. The other part was Stalin mobilizing to invade Japan from the North. They simply couldn't keep up the fight on two fronts.

 

[TRON JA307020]

It was part of the reason it ended. The other part was Stalin mobilizing to invade Japan from the North. They simply couldn't keep up the fight on two fronts.

Exactly. Russia I think had the heaviest casualties of the war. If I remember correctly they lost 20 million of military and civilian combined. I could be off on those figures.

 

[BillJ]

Exactly. Russia I think had the heaviest casualties of the war. If I remember correctly they lost 20 million of military and civilian combined. I could be off on those figures.

Which would have nothing to do with why Japan surrendered.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Which would have nothing to do with why Japan surrendered.

You mentioned Russia wanting to invade Japan. So I mentioned how many deaths the country suffered. Didn't say that's why Japan surrendered.

 

[BillJ]

You mentioned Russia wanting to invade Japan. So I mentioned how many deaths the country suffered. Didn't say that's why Japan surrendered.

But it was in response specifically to a post about why Japan surrendered...

 

[TRON JA307020]

If I enjoy it it's not a waste.

I don't waste my time.

Wow you've never watched something and then realized it sucked by the end and further realized you would rather have watched something else? You must choose what you watch with great precision.

 

[Paul755]

No - He just said:


^^^
So, yeah doesn't mean her never saw her again after that ceremony in the intervening years.

gotcha, like I said. Been a while since I watched the ep.

That was so wonderful. Totally got me.

eh, a little too **wink, wink, nudge, nudge** for me but YMMV.

I quickly fell in love with Lower Decks, even though I was sure it wasn't for me in the lead up to the show. I'm more interested by far in the story they are telling right now than anything Discovery or Picard have done.

Cartoon or not, LD is still the high bar for all of Kurtzman Trek to me.

 

[TRON JA307020]

But it was in response specifically to a post about why Japan surrendered...

Oh ok. Misread it.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Russia I think had the heaviest casualties of the war. If I remember correctly they lost 20 million of military and civilian combined. I could be off on those figures.

Yes. Many of them by Stalin’s own hand. It was often said that Stalin didn’t save the world from Hitler; Stalin and Hitler saved the world from each other.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Yes. Many of them by Stalin’s own hand. It was often said that Stalin didn’t save the world from Hitler; Stalin and Hitler saved the world from each other.

I'm not sure if you're talking about Stalins great purge and i belive the 1 million deaths he caused before WWII or if there was more during WWII that he was responsible for.

 

[ToddCam]

Did you live through the years of the Thiird Reich, the Axus Powers and WWII?

No. I don't understand the relevance of your question.

 

[Belz...]

Prodigy? Nickelodeon kiddie hour. Pass.

I've only seen the first episode so far but I found it less hectic and hyper, and more funny, than LD. Maybe you should give it a go.

 

[Belz...]

No. I don't understand the relevance of your question.

I think the point is that it's easy to judge after the fact, once you're enjoying the peace that our ancestors bought with blood.

 

[ToddCam]

I think the point is that it's easy to judge after the fact, once you're enjoying the peace that our ancestors bought with blood.

Judge what?

 

[Mudd]

I suspect it is a universal trait, but sometimes it feels uniquely American how we can hold ourselves as greater evils than others by default. American exceptionalism has to mean we're exceptionally bad, too.

The dropping of the nukes on Japan was a monstrous act that was probably unjustifiable. But "America" didn't do it, especially not in perpetuity. The leadership of the government and military ordered it. Other people carried it out. I doubt BillJ and I agree on much, but feeling endless guilt about the acts of your forebears is useless. Being cognizant of those actions, learning from them, and avoiding the same pitfalls is what we should do. And to say we cannot comment on something because of historical wrongs is ridiculous. Are we supposed to ignore any German about the rise of fascism, like say in the United States or Russia, because Hitler? If so, how many centuries does that last? How much German do you have to be to qualify as guilty of Germany's sins?

I can agree to a lot of this.

My point is not that what the writers had Burnham and company do was unforgivable - just that declaring a pragmatic endorsement of state terror was in no meaningful way "sticking to their principles." If words have meanings other than those decreed by Minitrue, it was just the opposite.

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

Japan was already working toward surrender (the US was fully aware of this) when we dropped the bombs. We did it not once, but twice, over several days. We murdered millions of innocents deliberately, not because we were desperate to end a war that was all but over, but as a show of military supremacy.

Exactly. The Japanese government didn't even have time to evaluate the devastation to make an informed response before another bomb was dropping on Nagasaki. In terms of rationale, internal de-classified US documents show that it was meant to be a demonstration of military might to intimidate the Soviets and hasten the end of the war before the Soviets could acquire more Japanese territory. As a WMD dropped in urban centers targeting men, women, children, infants, elderly, water supplies, hospitals, etc., it carries with it the mentality of terrorism: everyone is a legitimate target because they're all the enemy and they're all part of the war machine. That is precisely the rationale behind terrorism, but this was on a mass scale.

Yes, we can learn from mistakes, but when people rationalize it as being the right thing to do, they're basically saying they would do it all over again. That's not learning from mistakes.

Great start to SNW! Can't wait for the rest of the season!

 

[Bornin1980something]

I've only seen the first episode so far but I found it less hectic and hyper, and more funny, than LD. Maybe you should give it a go.

I found Prodigy funnier too.

 

[BillJ]

Yes, we can learn from mistakes, but when people rationalize it as being the right thing to do, they're basically saying they would do it all over again.

Unless someone is there, they really will never know if it was the right or wrong thing to do.