• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Why does Harry Kim never get promoted?

it’s a good theory and there is enough circumstantial evidence to support it. Recently when Boimler is reassigned to the Cerritos he is demoted back to Ensign, as the position is not for a Lt JG.

While that bugs me a lot (Boimler did nothing to deserve getting busted to ensign), I understand that it was necessary under the circumstances. Ditto with Riker refusing to move on (which pretty much shafted Data). However, there was NOTHING that Harry did on Voyager that he couldn't have done as a lieutenant.

what are you talking about?

"Before and After", I think.
 
While that bugs me a lot (Boimler did nothing to deserve getting busted to ensign), I understand that it was necessary under the circumstances. Ditto with Riker refusing to move on (which pretty much shafted Data). However, there was NOTHING that Harry did on Voyager that he couldn't have done as a lieutenant.
I’m not fan of that either, but at least is consistent.

"Before and After", I think.
thought about that, but I don’t remember kes being CMO for five years or being able to demote Kim.
 
Hardly any member of the Voyager staff got promoted, except for Tuvok. Paris had simply regained his old rank of Lieutenant j.g., a year-and-a-half after being demoted.
 
it’s a good theory and there is enough circumstantial evidence to support it. Recently when Boimler is reassigned to the Cerritos he is demoted back to Ensign, as the position is not for a Lt JG.

what?! When?!

what are you talking about?

no she hadn’t.
In the episode "Before and After" where Janeway was dead, and Chakotay was Captain, we saw Kes die of old age after she had been a living breathing Doctor for maybe 5 years.

A living breathing Doctor outranks an EMH.

Kes was the CMO until she retired and then her 3 year old daughter was the CMO. (Chief Medical Officer)

Maybe Kes was also close enough to a Counselor that she was included in the quarterly Crew evaluations with the first officer, who was probably Tuvok. And really, if she wanted to be a counselor, it would have taken her 9 days tops to study and pass every exam that Troi had.
 
Last edited:
thought about that, but I don’t remember kes being CMO for five years or being able to demote Kim.

She wasn't, she was only known to be a doctor. Also, in B&A, most of the other crew were promoted. Chakotay ascended to captain upon Janeway's death. Tuvok was first officer. Tom was LCDR, and Harry was senior lieutenant.

Hardly any member of the Voyager staff got promoted, except for Tuvok. Paris had simply regained his old rank of Lieutenant j.g., a year-and-a-half after being demoted.

That's still a promotion, which Tom got 1-1/2 years after being demoted. Harry had not gotten his hollow pip in six. While he shouldn't have ruined Tom's moment, he had a right to be... vexed.
 
Holograms have no rights.

Holograms have no rank.

Hoplograms are tools, not people.

The ECH was only allowed to command after the ship was abandoned, so that no one's feeling were hurt, therefore the emh is only the cmo when there are no other Doctors on board.

As a nurse, Tom or Kes should have been the CMO, rather than any one having to pretend to respect a toaster.

It's not like any one says please and thank you to their replicator.
 
In the episode "Before and After" where Janeway was dead, and Chakotay was Captain, we saw Kes die of old age after she had been a living breathing Doctor for maybe 5 years.

A living breathing Doctor outranks an EMH.
definitely not on voyager. Doctor Van Gogh was the CMO, then and as always.

Holograms have no rights.

Holograms have no rank.

Hoplograms are tools, not people.
did you ever watch voyager?!
 
definitely not on voyager. Doctor Van Gogh was the CMO, then and as always.

did you ever watch voyager?!

The Admiral was unwilling to give the Doctor Human Rights in Author, Author.

10 years earlier when the EMH was being designed, the law said that holograms were tools.

Whatever change to the law was coming, the current law did not reflect the presence of sentient holograms, of which there was barely more than a handful in existence who may not have even been sentient at all.

The state of the law ten years earlier when the protocols for what parameters the EMH would exist between when being factored into the construction of Voyager's Sickbay is the law that matters... Until there's an update.

Can Janeway amend Federation law?

I suppose, as a a flag officer, she can be a judge in a court case.
 
It's irrelevant. The CMO can relieve Harry (or anyone else) of duty if he is medically unfit. But they are not in his chain of command. Since Harry is a department head, he answers to the captain.
 
The Admiral was unwilling to give the Doctor Human Rights in Author, Author.

10 years earlier when the EMH was being designed, the law said that holograms were tools.

Whatever change to the law was coming, the current law did not reflect the presence of sentient holograms, of which there was barely more than a handful in existence who may not have even been sentient at all.

The state of the law ten years earlier when the protocols for what parameters the EMH would exist between when being factored into the construction of Voyager's Sickbay is the law that matters... Until there's an update.

Can Janeway amend Federation law?

I suppose, as a a flag officer, she can be a judge in a court case.
again, did you ever watch the show? Some bureaucrat in the alpha quadrant might have been stuck up with their preconceptions, but on voyager by then everyone considered the doctor a person.
And in any case the CMO can’t demote anyone.
 
again, did you ever watch the show? Some bureaucrat in the alpha quadrant might have been stuck up with their preconceptions, but on voyager by then everyone considered the doctor a person.
And in any case the CMO can’t demote anyone.

The quarterly evaluation process as seen on the TNG episode Lower Decks (Not the cartoon) goes as follows.

1.Department heads write evaluations and recommendation about the crew daily, and send them to the first officer.

2. Every 3 months the first officer and the ships Counselor sum up the department head evaluations, and passes on those recommendations for promotions and transfers, and their interpretation, and their recommendations to the captain.

3. The Captain considers the recommendations or simply rubber stamps the 2000 page pdf because he trusts Riker, and sends the evaluations and promotion recommendations to Starfleet command.

4. Starfleet command makes sure nothing hiinky is going on, then approves the recommendations for promotion or transfer, and then sends it back to Picard.

5. Picard passes the paperwork back to Riker who informs everyone about their change of circumstances or lack of change of circumstances.

:)

The Ships Counselor is an important part of the process. The XO says if he thinks a crewman is proficient enough to be promoted to a new job, and the Counselor figures out if the crewman is all there enough to handle the increased stress of a new job without overloading a phaser in the mess.

If Kes was the CMO, and there was as yet still not a ships Counselor on Chakotay's Voyager, she would be a fine substitute for the Counselor, who's job it is to make sure that Tuvok, Captain Chakotays XO, doesn't promote of demote or transfer crewmen to where they shouldn't be promoted, demoted, or transfered, for the sake of their own mental health.

If the Doctor is sentient he is a slave.

If the Doctor is a slave and his friends are treating him like a free man, then they are subversive criminals awarding an Ai liberties he is forbidden to hold because the default setting for all AI is "kill all humans".

Think of the antebellum south. The law of the land is shitty, but its the law of the land, and if you try to do the right thing, against the law, there's a possibility you might be whipped to death.
 
If Kes was the CMO, and there was as yet still not a ships Counselor on Chakotay's Voyager, she would be a fine substitute for the Counselor, who's job it is to make sure that Tuvok, Captain Chakotays XO, doesn't promote of demote or transfer crewmen to where they shouldn't be promoted, demoted, or transfered, for the sake of their own mental health.
kes was not the CMO and even before ending up in the Delta quadrant voyager never had a counsellor on board. Even on TNG we have some clues (witch you use to base your *conjectures* on) on how promotions can work, but nothing on demotions. In fact I don’t think we ever saw anyone being demoted by someone that wasn’t at least a captain.

If the Doctor is sentient he is a slave.
No he isn’t. Not after a few years. In fact when he decides to leave to become a singer he does.
 
kes was not the CMO and even before ending up in the Delta quadrant voyager never had a counsellor on board. Even on TNG we have some clues (witch you use to base your *conjectures* on) on how promotions can work, but nothing on demotions. In fact I don’t think we ever saw anyone being demoted by someone that wasn’t at least a captain.

No he isn’t. Not after a few years. In fact when he decides to leave to become a singer he does.

You believe that that actually happened?

I see two possibilities.

1. Janeway implanted false memories where "the aliens rejected him, and he returned to Voyager".

2. Janeway copied the Doctor. One copy of the Doctor stayed on Voyager unaware he has a twin and one left Voyager unaware that he's still on Voyager as well.
 
Nurse Chapple became CMO in an Episode of TAS.

Nurse Ogawa became CMO in TNG Genisis.

When there are no Doctors, a Nurse can become the CMO.

In the Before and After Timeline the Doctor was offline for 9 months during the Year of Hell, and Kes was his Nurse.
 
She wasn't, she was only known to be a doctor. Also, in B&A, most of the other crew were promoted. Chakotay ascended to captain upon Janeway's death. Tuvok was first officer. Tom was LCDR, and Harry was senior lieutenant.



That's still a promotion, which Tom got 1-1/2 years after being demoted. Harry had not gotten his hollow pip in six. While he shouldn't have ruined Tom's moment, he had a right to be... vexed.


I don't regard Paris regaining his old rank as a promotion. And aside from Tuvok, who else got promoted? No one, really.
 
Sentient holograms are a huge, messy can of worms under any circumstance. Where do you draw the line between "computer program intended for entertainment or other set purpose" and "being capable of independent thought"? They're both a bunch if 1's and 0's in a specific format, after all.

I don't regard Paris regaining his old rank as a promotion. And aside from Tuvok, who else got promoted? No one, really.

Tom walked onto that bridge as an ensign. He left it as a lieutenant. That's a promotion. If Harry had found a little box on his chair with a hollow pip in it, it would have been the exact same thing. Only difference is, Harry gave Voyager four times as much service, and he never screwed up so badly that Janeway was seriously considering blasting him to ions ("Thirty Days"). Yes, I know Harry got in trouble too, but interspecies wild mambo isn't the same thing as stealing an armed shuttlecraft and attempting to destroy millions of credits worth of property.

I'm not complaining about Tom's little box; he earned it. However, Harry should have found his long before.
 
You believe that that actually happened?

I see two possibilities.

1. Janeway implanted false memories where "the aliens rejected him, and he returned to Voyager".

2. Janeway copied the Doctor. One copy of the Doctor stayed on Voyager unaware he has a twin and one left Voyager unaware that he's still on Voyager as well.
And here we go with more of your wild, baseless theories.
Nurse Chapple became CMO in an Episode of TAS.

Nurse Ogawa became CMO in TNG Genisis.

When there are no Doctors, a Nurse can become the CMO.

In the Before and After Timeline the Doctor was offline for 9 months during the Year of Hell, and Kes was his Nurse.
1. Temporarily filling in a position doesn’t mean holding it;
2. 9 months are not the “at least five years”.
3. Once more, the CMO can’t demote anyone. At maximum they can relieve someone from duty.
 
The people who are part of the quarterly crew evaluation process recommend promotions, demotions and transfers.

I suggested that Kes might be part of that process if Voyager did not have a counselor since she was the CMO, in the Before and After timeline.

I assumed the Doctor would stand down as soon as a person could do the job, since he's only there for emergencies.

And you're saying that the Doctor is a vain asshole who will never relinquish power.

Maybe Kes is also a vain asshole who will also never relinquish power?

After her nine months as the CMO, she might welcome an underling, but giving up power to a pretentious immortal machine?

Now consider that the Doctor is immortal, and Kes had less than 5 years left until she was dead.

The Doctor can get his sickbay back over her tiny dead body, and its hardly an inconvenience at all.

5 years.

PIshaw.
 
Given that Kes has long been one of the Doctor's staunchest advocates, does it seem likely that they would come into conflict in this way? Since she didn't wear a uniform in the B&A timeline (Neelix, by comparison, did), she may have practiced medicine as a civilian, making chain of command less relevant.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top