Possibly. I just don't think she deserves anything.
Jennifer Lien
- Thread starter Danja
- Start date
Why?
Because as a character the writers are allowed to explore in different ways. I remember attending a writing seminar and I, in my teen wisdom, throughout the question of "how do I make sure the characters get what they deserve?" And was promptly educated that the characters don't deserve anything. They are not entitled to some sort of life other than what the author gives them in working with the story they want to tell. Viewing characters as entitled to some obligation can limit a writer in some senses.Why?
Now, this is not meant as a defense of poor story telling but rather on my approach to characters. Do I hope they have a good story, and good life within it? Absolutely! Do I think they deserve anything? I do not.
Well, those who read the stories might want a good life for the characters in their fictional world.
If Ian Fleming had made James Bond a hopeless alcoholic or someone who ended up in a nuthouse after a couple of books, they would have stop buying and reading his books, at least the books about James Bond.
Limits are about to be broken up.
I had no problem in breaking the limits for Kes which were created by the previous writers. No doubts in doing it either.
Certainly but that doesn't obligate anyone nor does a character deserve anything.
Maybe, maybe not. We don't know. That's the thing is the assumption of only one way to tell a story, but there's not. Iron Man was portrayed as an alcoholic too. Did that take away from the character?
Kes ≠ James Bond.
VOY survived without Kes.
I seriously doubt the James Bond films would survive without James Bond.
I haven't read the Iron Man books so I can't comment on them.
if he was described as an alcoholic early on and had to struggle with that, the readers might have had sympathies for him from the start because of that.
But if James Bond all of a sudden would be turned into some person with certain problems and those problems would diminish him as the hero and action character he was, then people might get bored and quit reading (or watching)
I didn't compare Kes and James Bond in that way. My comment was more about a character who all of a sudden is turned into something completly different, maybe less interesting than the rprevioyus hero role and not what the readers or viewers are expecting when they read a book or watch a movie.
You are right when you assume that James Bond movies or books wouldn't survive without James Bond.
As for Kes, she was never a main character and never meant to be that either.
Voyager survived without Kes. I guess that's what it can be called.
I actually don't think so. Mostly because I read a lot of different fictions and see those movements in characters. So, if I am already invested in the character and they have this sudden turn I'm usually more invested to see them work through it. I don't treat it as a diminished capacity of the character.
Kes's days were always numbered, I mean even more than any other member of the crew, by her short lifespan.
That remains my head canon, and for good reason. Otherwise, Voyager's dilemma is very simple to solve: ferry everyone home at warp 10, and de-salamanderize them on arrival.
I can understand that. But I guess love makes you do some funny things.
As for the other Voyager characters, except for Seven, Janeway and The Doctor, the others were actually in a limbo since season 4.
Touche. Of course, Harry was in limbo pretty much the whole time.
But that is an essential part of her character, just as Data's presumed immortality was a part of his. One of my favorite aspects of "Time's Arrow" was Data having to face that he wouldn't be around forever.
"Picard" completed this arc.
By my calculations, Kes would have had a year to go when she reached the AQ. More than enough time for her to set out to eagerly explore her new home.
Exactly.
Regarding "THRESHOLD"...
I actually find it a good character story for Tom. Plus, as a horror fan, it was disturbing to watch literally fall apart.
I agree that overall, it's not a good episode, but those character scenes with Tom at the end and his plea to let him make the flight were really well acted and a nice view of his character. Bonus points because I love horror. Both aspects elevate this episode from being the worst of the series... there are FAR better candidates for that title.
Regarding "FURY"...
I agree that it is a terrible episode, and frankly more rightly deserves to be called worst of the series than "THRESHOLD". But as much as I hate it, I see there are a few who enjoy it and see a positive aspect about it that I don't. (And I have to admit, at least it explained why Samantha Wildman was pregnant for a year and a half.) And while the argument is a good one that it could be a form of Ocampan senility, lack of guidance from Tuvok, dark path, etc., I simply disagree. But I've got no issue with others liking it.
The complete oversaturation of calling it 'that shit episode' turns a lot of people off from having any kind of discussion.
I think what humans in general these days forget to do is agree to disagree. There's nothing wrong with having a minority opinion about an episode, or even a loud majority voice about an episode. You want to change my mind about a subject or an episode? Great, let's chat about it. You might change my mind, I might change yours. We all might be too entrenched in our views to be convinced. But we have to remember that everyone has a right to their opinion, whether it 'conforms' to a majority of people or not. We keep forgetting to do that, and we continue to make 1984 a reality.
I actually find it a good character story for Tom. Plus, as a horror fan, it was disturbing to watch literally fall apart.
I agree that overall, it's not a good episode, but those character scenes with Tom at the end and his plea to let him make the flight were really well acted and a nice view of his character. Bonus points because I love horror. Both aspects elevate this episode from being the worst of the series... there are FAR better candidates for that title.
Regarding "FURY"...
I agree that it is a terrible episode, and frankly more rightly deserves to be called worst of the series than "THRESHOLD". But as much as I hate it, I see there are a few who enjoy it and see a positive aspect about it that I don't. (And I have to admit, at least it explained why Samantha Wildman was pregnant for a year and a half.) And while the argument is a good one that it could be a form of Ocampan senility, lack of guidance from Tuvok, dark path, etc., I simply disagree. But I've got no issue with others liking it.
The complete oversaturation of calling it 'that shit episode' turns a lot of people off from having any kind of discussion.
I think what humans in general these days forget to do is agree to disagree. There's nothing wrong with having a minority opinion about an episode, or even a loud majority voice about an episode. You want to change my mind about a subject or an episode? Great, let's chat about it. You might change my mind, I might change yours. We all might be too entrenched in our views to be convinced. But we have to remember that everyone has a right to their opinion, whether it 'conforms' to a majority of people or not. We keep forgetting to do that, and we continue to make 1984 a reality.
Agreed. Or any other issue, be it Trek related or not. If you disagree with someone else, your aim should be to discuss it reasonably with them, not "shut them down" with insults or swearwords or institutional abuse of power.
To use an issue I often focus on, if a person declares that they think the showrunners were right to keep Harry at ensign for seven years... I will certainly tell them why I disagree with them. But I will respect their right to their opinion.
That part of the episode was fine. Indeed, it had potential to be something grim, dark, and scary, a look at the consequences of crossing a line that should not be crossed, especially if it ended with the Doc only barely able to retrieve Tom from death's door.
But then... salamanders.
Picard, or rather Aaron Satie, says it best:
"You know, there some words I've known since I was a school boy. 'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.' Those words were uttered by Judge Aaron Satie as wisdom and warning. The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged."
Always loved that quote. Though I struggle with it, it's why I value many different opinions, while largely keeping my own to myself unless I feel necessary. I don't like putting people on the defensive, granted I suck at it. It's a work in progress.
When people call something "the worst ever" I'm more intrigued as to the whys behind it than anything else.
I remember the six years I spent as a site moderator (not here). A lot of people put up stuff that I passionately disagreed with, and even found downright insulting. But, as long as it was within the rules, I took no actions against the posters. Because that's free speech.
Of course, I sure did tell the posters in question why I thought they were wrong!
Of course, I sure did tell the posters in question why I thought they were wrong!
I can understand that. But if the character can't work through it but remains some sort of wreck, far from what he/she was? Then people would start losing interest. At least I would. I remember almost quitting a series I watched once when the episodes became more about the main characters personal problems than what the series actually was supposed to be about.
That could have been changed by giving her a more human lifespan. The Doctor, Suspiria or Q could have done that.
The whole nine year lifespan thing was a mistake. It limited the character and led nowhere.
As I wrote before, The episode could have been saved by making it a nightmare that Tom had. By doing so, the epside is actually funny to watch. It would have been more like Projections or Distant Voices, the DS9 episode where Bashir has a hallucination about rapidly growing old and being chased by the Lethian whose attack on Bashir resulted in that hallucination.
I might be very rigid when it comes to this subject. But I simply can't understand how anyone can like that episode.
It's so downright insulting to the fans of the character and even those wh only have the slightest liking for Kes. I mean, I would have disliked the episode even if it was about another character. I remember seein an episode of a crime series a couple of years before Berman's and Braga's little "masterpiece" in season 6 of Voyager was aired, in which they brought back a character who had left the series some years later for dubious reasons (both for the character and the actor) just to have the character killed off in that episode. I got so angry that I stopped watching the series there and then. And that character wasn't even a favorite character of mine. I just found it so stupid and meaningless.
You're absolutely right here. Not to mention that censorship is creeping in everywhere.
Correct. Not to mention the whole thing with breaking the warp 10-barrier and then.........nothing. No one ever talked about it later. And no one ever mentioned the salamander kids to Janeway or Paris either. So it must have been a dream
It does. I know and I can assure you that.
Still, I wish that neelix and his new-found family could have ended up at a better place. By the way, how far is that asteroid located from Federation space?
Which was sad actually. I often compare wioth the Voyager books where harry is actually doing something. Unfortunately the "whipping boy" syndrome is visible even there. He gets badly injured and is close to death a couple of times there too. But at least he's more active in the books that in the series.
I think that the whole lifespan thing was a mistake which limited the character. It could and should have been corrected.
I think that Harry combined the worst of all worlds for other overlooked characters.
Like Data, he was denied the promotion he spent years earning.
Like Worf, his love life was a series of painful calamities.
And like O'Brien, he just plain suffered a lot.
I think that the limited lifespan could have been worked with. They could even have done something very special with it, sort of a "make every day count" vibe.
This should have been what 'Fury' was about instead. And obviously the episode would need to be retitled.
Harry might just be my favourite character from Voyager.
