Jennifer Lien

[at Quark's]

I don't mean any offense to fans of the character, but Sickbay was set up to essentially be a Holodeck. With a little programming, they could've made multiple holographic nurses that would've been even better than an Ocampa and off-duty Helmsman.

Kes was just one of those characters that was no more important to the overall narrative of the show than Chekov was to TOS.

On the fly attempt of giving an explanation: we know the EMH was already qutie a heavy drain on computer resources. Perhaps running multiple instances of holographic medical personnel (even if they could be 'lighter' versions compared to the EMH) was simply too much for the computer to cope with. Also, this was only a very first generation of an EMH so it would perhaps also have been considered a eleborate field test of some kind, before trying to create an entire medical holographic crew. The EMH was never intended as more than a short-term addition to 'real' medical staff, after all.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I would listen to her read the phone book. Just sayin. Lovely voice.

Kes had a beautiful voice, absolutely.

 

[at Quark's]

Kes had a beautiful voice, absolutely.

As long as she doesn't scream, yes.

 

[Orphalesion]

I don't have a problem with her voice. The only voice on Voyager I can't stand a lot of the time is Kate Mulgrew's.
But it was kind of weird how the space pixie had a deeper voice than the Captain and the Half-Klingon.

 

[Lynx]

If Harry and Kes had been on DS9, Harry'd be a ○○ lieutenant, married, with a kid, hardened by war and suffering, and able to pluck Quark like a pigeon. Kes would have lived an amazing life as Bashir's medical assistant, be a wife and mom, and finally die peacefully in bed surrounded by family.

I don't think that the DS9 writers would have come up with that silly nine-year lifespan so let's forget the last part of your text. Otherwise I'm sure that she would have had great andexciting life at DS9 and also had time to relax at Quark's bar.

And starting a new career as well!

As for Kim, I'm sure that he would have been more sucessfull and important too. But no one plucks Quark like a pigeon!
After stating that, I just have to present my three all time Star Trek favorites gathered at Quark's bar.

, we're talking about people who thought "Threshold" was a good idea. Would you expect anything different?

No, actually not.
The sad thing is that Threshold for all its silliness is actually watchable if you imagine it as some nightmare Paris had after eating too much of Neelix's food. Unfortunately there are other episodes who are far worse than Threshold.

disagreement. Neelix had served his purpose to the show. He was given the opportunity to make a life with his fellow Talaxians. And maybe, one day, be Starfleet's ambassador to the Delta Quadrant.

No, I think that it was rude to dump him. He should have followed the ship to Earth and lived a happy life there with his friends. Not to mention that the whole plot with finding the Talaxians there on that asteroid so far from Talaxian space was highly unrealistic. As if I would take a vacation on Antarctic and the first one I would run into at some scientfic station would be a former neighbor from my hometown.

I don't mean any offense to fans of the character, but Sickbay was set up to essentially be a Holodeck. With a little programming, they could've made multiple holographic nurses that would've been even better than an Ocampa and off-duty Helmsman.

Kes was just one of those characters that was no more important to the overall narrative of the show than Chekov was to TOS.

Obviously they couldn't have a whole staff with holograms,otherwise Kes would have had something else to do. Not to mention that the idea of her as nurse was better than having Paris of all people there as a nurse!
OK, Paris is one of my favorites but he's a pilot, not a nurse!

Kes was a much better character than many other Star Trek characters. As for Chekov, he was OK. A bit annoying in the series but great in the movies.

 

[at Quark's]

In the finale she and Sisko would descend into the Fire Caves and battle the Ptah Wraiths together, ending with Kes shedding her mortal form to seal the Ptah wraiths away and joining the Prophets, while Sisko returns home.

Now I'm imagining a Fury episode taking place about 2 years after that final where the Prophets drive Kes crazy ...

(Disclaimer: I absolutely loathe Fury, but this idea sounds like it could be funny.)

 

[Orphalesion]

Now I'm imagining a Fury episode taking place about 2 years after that final where the Prophets drive Kes crazy ...

(Disclaimer: I absolutely loathe Fury, but this idea sounds like it could be funny.)

Well thankfully by that time the show would have been over for two years
And I picture more a scenario where we actually see Kes saying her goodbyes before blinking off to the Prophets, just like with Sisko. Then again we also saw Kes ascend to a higher state of being on Voyager and they still made Fury (for whatever it's worth in my head-canon the "Kes" we see in Fury is just Kes' cast-off mortal aspect who gained sapience through a cosmic fluke, while the "real" Kes is now a sufficiently advanced alien who restored Ocampa's destroyed biosphere and is teaching her people how to use their powers, which I think is the most fitting end for her, considering her personality and journey)

But yeah it could be funny.

 

[at Quark's]

Yeah, I have to agree that to make Kes merge with the Prophets is a great ending for Kes and it would have been a neat wrapup of the series, too.

There's one feature of the original story concept I wouldn't want to miss though, and that is that Sisko is basically your guy next door, nothing special about him, and yet he turns out to be the Chosen One, instead of a 'special' being that has all kinds of supernatural powers already. To me, that idea has an appeal all of its own.

 

[Orphalesion]

There's one feature of the original story concept I wouldn't want to miss though, and that is that Sisko is basically your guy next door, nothing special about him, and yet he turns out to be the Chosen One, instead of a 'special' being that has all kinds of supernatural powers already. To me, that idea has an appeal all of its own.

See, while I get your POV, I disagree here. I think Sisko being the Christ Child of the Prophets was not a good move, and possibly the one thing about DS9 that clashes with the general "Star Trek philosophy"(as far as that exists).
In my opinion, Sisko should have been a completely normal human...who goes on to do all the stuff we see him do in the show not because of his magical Prophet genes, but because of skills and determination and such.
So I'd be very happy to outsource the Prophet Christ Child storyline to DS9 Kes, and even so, in this version Sisko would still be the emissary.

 

[at Quark's]

See, while I get your POV, I disagree here. I think Sisko being the Christ Child of the Prophets was not a good move, and possibly the one thing about DS9 that clashes with the general "Star Trek philosophy"(as far as that exists).
In my opinion, Sisko should have been a completely normal human...who goes on to do all the stuff we see him do in the show not because of his magical Prophet genes, but because of skills and determination and such.
So I'd be very happy to outsource the Prophet Christ Child storyline to DS9 Kes, and even so, in this version Sisko would still be the emissary.

As far as I can tell, Sisko had no 'magical Prophet genes'. Both his father and mother were human. Even though his mother was 'overshadowed' by a prophet at the time, that wouldn't alter her genes (I think). Which would mean his genes are 100% human as well. As to why the Prophets would want this particular gene combination that's a question unanswered, or, if you believe in the time loop theory, it's simply because they 'fixated' the event in history after meeting Sisko in the pilot episode.

I'll agree though that in retrospect, the story element of the prophets 'ensuring' the birth of Sisko perhaps wasn't a good move.

 

[Oddish]

Sisko was totally human. What happened with his biological mother is a little like a person in the Potterverse placing another under the Imperius curse. While it is active, they have absolute control of that person... but even if they have a child while being controlled, the child is still genetically theirs.

Sisko's existence was arranged by the Prophets, but he doesn't share their DNA. If such a thing were possible, then his birth mother's involvement wouldn't have been necessary.

 

[Tracy Trek]

Kes' character was of great importance. Without her the only medical staff the doctor had was Tom. Freaking. Paris. the guy who already had like five other jobs he was needed at. And this is really a problem in-universe since even a holographic doctor can't be everywhere at once.

Not to mention that the idea of her as nurse was better than having Paris of all people there as a nurse!
OK, Paris is one of my favorites but he's a pilot, not a nurse!

Plus as chief pilot, wouldn't Paris have to supervise the other pilots as well as work his own shift and then also work in sick bay. There should have at least been a mention of other helpers in sickbaby. Like Samantha Wildman for example. Or if Simon Tarses from TNG's The Drumhead could have ended up in the Maquis on Chakotay's ship, he was already a medical technician.

I think I get why it was written that Paris worked in sick bay. He and EMH had a snarky funny dynamic with each other.

Not to mention that the whole plot with finding the Talaxians there on that asteroid so far from Talaxian space was highly unrealistic. As if I would take a vacation on Antarctic and the first one I would run into at some scientfic station would be a former neighbor from my hometown.

[/QUOTE]

I agree because this wasn't a colony that was close to Talaxia, it was about 40 to 45 thousand light years from there because wasn't Voyager about 30 thousand light years from the AQ by season 7? Yet they still knew about the war with the Haakonians and how it ended up. Nothing was ever said that they encountered a short cut to get where they were. The only head canon explanation I can think of the Vaadwaar's subspace corriders. And plus, are we supposed to believe that Neelix and the others can hold off the enemy that wants to blow them up forever. Why did they want to remain on that dinky depressing little asteroid forever anyway?

 

[Lynx]

It'd be interesting to picture Kes on DS9. I assume she'd probably be a Gamma quadrant alien whom Sisko and Jadzia discover in the pilot as they travel through the worm hole.
Or maybe alternatively, she's introduced in that episode with that Gamma Quadrant planet where people are locked in an forever-war and immortal as long as they stay on the planet, and she's a mysterious bystander who works in a house of healing that treats the wounded from both side, Kai Opaka takes her place there and she travels back to DS9.
And considering her considerable Psy powers (which Voyager didn't even begin to explore properly) I could see a situation where Sisko remains the emissary, but Kes is actually the Prophet Christ-Child instead of him, giving her a lot of drama in the last couple seasons.If we go with the war-planet origin for her, then this would also give more gravitas to Kai Opaka ending up there in exchange for Kes instead of just getting her out of the way like in the show as it exists now.
In the finale she and Sisko would descend into the Fire Caves and battle the Ptah Wraiths together, ending with Kes shedding her mortal form to seal the Ptah wraiths away and joining the Prophets, while Sisko returns home.

Now I'm imagining a Fury episode taking place about 2 years after that final where the Prophets drive Kes crazy ...

(Disclaimer: I absolutely loathe Fury, but this idea sounds like it could be funny.)

Yeah, I have to agree that to make Kes merge with the Prophets is a great ending for Kes and it would have been a neat wrapup of the series, too.

There's one feature of the original story concept I wouldn't want to miss though, and that is that Sisko is basically your guy next door, nothing special about him, and yet he turns out to be the Chosen One, instead of a 'special' being that has all kinds of supernatural powers already. To me, that idea has an appeal all of its own.

I have to quote Tim Bogert when he was somewhat disappointed with the weak reply from the audience when Beck, Bogert and Appice were playing in Japan and Bogert tried to make the audience sing along:

What's the matter with you people?

Why is everyone coming up with such morbid "ends" for Kes? Why must Kes absolutely being killed off or turned into a monster, some energy-being mumbo-jumbo, some crazy idiot and who knows what instead of simply being a Star Trek character with a normal happy life. Not to mention a re-run of the worst episode ever made in any TV series.

Am I the only one who thinks that she deserves better than some twisted end in a morbid story.

You people must really hate her!

"Oh, my eyes they see but I can't believe
Oh, my heart is heavy as I turn my back and leave"

"Sea Of Madness"
Iron Maiden

 

[unimatrix7]

Why is everyone coming up with such morbid "ends" for Kes? Why must Kes absolutely being killed off or turned into a monster, some energy-being mumbo-jumbo, some crazy idiot and who knows what instead of simply being a Star Trek character with a normal happy life. Not to mention a re-run of the worst episode ever made in any TV series.

Am I the only one who thinks that she deserves better than some twisted end in a morbid story.

You people must really hate her!

for 20 years it’s been impossible to have a discussion about Fury on this board because of your gatekeeping.

I thought Fury was a serviceable episode and I like the theme of Kes being frightened by her independence and being angry at the Voyager crew. If I were Kes I’d have felt abandoned by them. And with no Tuvok to help tame powers that were rapidly getting out of control, I can see her going down a very dark road indeed.

I don’t hate Kes. I loved her character, and I felt for Lien being dumped and her subsequent health battles.

I named my cat after Kes. She was a beautiful creature (provided she was kept away from the ‘flying steaks’ in the backyard) and still with us until just a couple of years ago.

 

[Orphalesion]

I have to quote Tim Bogert when he was somewhat disappointed with the weak reply from the audience when Beck, Bogert and Appice were playing in Japan and Bogert tried to make the audience sing along:

What's the matter with you people?

First of all; you should by now know that I like Kes. But even as a silly little amateur writer (I'm talking about me here), even when writing fanfic, even when coming up with "wouldn't it be neat" scenarios on this or other forums, I don't just shower characters I like with presents and fairy tale endings just because I Iike them. I try (try) to find something that makes sense for them and the world and situations they live in.
So for my preferred, head-canon ending for Kes, I actually try to extrapolate from both what we saw on screen of Kes' personality and behaviour and from what we got in the last episode and go for a more bitter-sweet situation. I think that's more fun than rough-sledding over everything to force some saccharine "happy" ending.

And I was actually going to leave you alone, but if you stoop so low as to insult me, yet again;
You do NOT own Kes just because you wrote some Fan-Script/Fanfic and host it on a fansite.
And since you do not own Kes, and have no claim on her, we are all free to imagine her and her future whichever way we want, and do not need your approval, and if all you do is throwing tantrums because we have our own opinions on the "best" head-canon ending for Kes, why even bother?

 

[Nyotarules]

I have to quote Tim Bogert when he was somewhat disappointed with the weak reply from the audience when Beck, Bogert and Appice were playing in Japan and Bogert tried to make the audience sing along:

What's the matter with you people?

Why is everyone coming up with such morbid "ends" for Kes? Why must Kes absolutely being killed off or turned into a monster, some energy-being mumbo-jumbo, some crazy idiot and who knows what instead of simply being a Star Trek character with a normal happy life. Not to mention a re-run of the worst episode ever made in any TV series.

Am I the only one who thinks that she deserves better than some twisted end in a morbid story.

You people must really hate her!

"Oh, my eyes they see but I can't believe
Oh, my heart is heavy as I turn my back and leave"

"Sea Of Madness"
Iron Maiden

Kes is a fictional character, you don't own her, she ain't yours to keep. The fundamentalist Trektalibanista mindset you display on this topic needs adjustment.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

With her short lifespan, could Kes have really had a truly happy ending anyway? Regardless of how a fan feels, the character always had a limited shelf life.

 

[Oddish]

While I dislike what was done with Kes in "Fury", and I have my own set of subjects I have strong feelings about, I am inclined to agree. We need to respect each other's right to our own opinion, however much we dislike said opinion. Sadly, that seems to be a vanishing sentiment in our society.

The sad thing is that Threshold for all its silliness is actually watchable if you imagine it as some nightmare Paris had after eating too much of Neelix's food. Unfortunately there are other episodes who are far worse than Threshold.

Better or worse is subjective, of course. But Threshold, IMO, holds the title for "most ludicrous".

No, I think that it was rude to dump him. He should have followed the ship to Earth and lived a happy life there with his friends.

I could have seen that happening. However, I maintain that Neelix was among the best handled of the Voyager characters not because his ending was best, but because he had an ending. Aside from Janeway's promotion to admiral, all other Voyager characters were in limbo for years afterward.

 

[Lynx]

for 20 years it’s been impossible to have a discussion about Fury on this board because of your gatekeeping.

I thought Fury was a serviceable episode and I like the theme of Kes being frightened by her independence and being angry at the Voyager crew. If I were Kes I’d have felt abandoned by them. And with no Tuvok to help tame powers that were rapidly getting out of control, I can see her going down a very dark road indeed.

I don’t hate Kes. I loved her character, and I felt for Lien being dumped and her subsequent health battles.

I named my cat after Kes. She was a beautiful creature (provided she was kept away from the ‘flying steaks’ in the backyard) and still with us until just a couple of years ago.

That episode was a piece of insulting crap and you know it as well as I do.
And I won't change my opinion about that episode.

First of all; you should by now know that I like Kes. But even as a silly little amateur writer (I'm talking about me here), even when writing fanfic, even when coming up with "wouldn't it be neat" scenarios on this or other forums, I don't just shower characters I like with presents and fairy tale endings just because I Iike them. I try (try) to find something that makes sense for them and the world and situations they live in.
So for my preferred, head-canon ending for Kes, I actually try to extrapolate from both what we saw on screen of Kes' personality and behaviour and from what we got in the last episode and go for a more bitter-sweet situation. I think that's more fun than rough-sledding over everything to force some saccharine "happy" ending.

And I was actually going to leave you alone, but if you stoop so low as to insult me, yet again;
You do NOT own Kes just because you wrote some Fan-Script/Fanfic and host it on a fansite.
And since you do not own Kes, and have no claim on her, we are all free to imagine her and her future whichever way we want, and do not need your approval, and if all you do is throwing tantrums because we have our own opinions on the "best" head-canon ending for Kes, why even bother?

I'm sorry if you felt personally insulted by my comments. It was never my intention and I apologize for it.
But I do think that I have the right to question why all solutions for Kes must be "worst case scenarios".
Wasn't it bad enough as it was in that series?

As for my "fansite", it's a magnificent piece of work which I'm proud of.
My fanscript/fanfic are.................OK, I guess. In fact, in some places better that the ones Berman and his gang came up with and I'm not writing that to brag over my own writing. I'm actually aware of my shortcomings.

And honestly, wouldn't this scenario for Kes be more fun than any "worst case scenario".

Kes is a fictional character, you don't own her, she ain't yours to keep. The fundamentalist Trektalibanista mindset you display on this topic needs adjustment.

So I need a brainwash?
That would be a bit rude, won't it?
I only questioned why so many want to kill off the character. I can't understand why?
And as I wrote in a comment to another poster, it was never any intention to insult anyone. I also apologized for that.

As for "Fundamentalist Trektalibanista", I must admit that I never seen that title before.
Maybe I should change my username to that?

As for "owning" and such, if you were strolling to a forest on some overgrown old road which haven't been used for many many years and you would find an old vintage car, totally wrecked and abandoned, I don't think anyone would mind if you found a way to bring it home and restore it to its former glory.

 

[Lynx]

While I dislike what was done with Kes in "Fury", and I have my own set of subjects I have strong feelings about, I am inclined to agree. We need to respect each other's right to our own opinion, however much we dislike said opinion. Sadly, that seems to be a vanishing sentiment in our society.

You are correct there. I just wondered why so many want the "worst case scenario" for the character.
It was never my intention to insult anyone.

or worse is subjective, of course. But Threshold, IMO, holds the title for "most ludicrous".

That title is actually accurate. But the episode could have been saved if they had had an endscene in whcih Paris wakes up and realize that it was all a dream. That would have made the episode more funny than annoying. It would have been more like Projections or Distant Voices, the DS9 episode where Bashir has a hallucination about rapidly growing old and being chased by the Lethian whose attack on Bashir resulted in that hallucination.

I could have seen that happening. However, I maintain that Neelix was among the best handled of the Voyager characters not because his ending was best, but because he had an ending. Aside from Janeway's promotion to admiral, all other Voyager characters were in limbo for years afterward.

I just wished that Neelix had ended up on a better place than that barren asteroid in the middle of nowhere and that he could have stayed together with his friends.

As for the other Voyager characters, except for Seven, Janeway and The Doctor, the others were actually in a limbo since season 4.