The Excelsior - uncovering the design

[Vale]

In the case of TOS, this term might mean nacelles or the secondary hull, rather than discreet tanks within the ship, like those in TNG.

Scotty specifically refer to "magnetic bottles" and "the magnetic field that bottles up the antimatter". Scotty enters what is variously referred to as an access tube or a service crawlway leading to the matter-antimatter reaction chamber. There are other engineering staff just outside the crawlway and Scotty refers to "explosive separator charges to blast me clear of the ship", rather than "us", so it's unlikely to be the entire secondary hull with other people just hanging around the corridors waiting to see if they'll die or not.

My assumption is that this was based on the Jeffries-era "nacelles are completely integrated engine units with their own matter, antimatter, and reactors" paradigm of how warp drive worked, and that Scotty was indeed inside one of the warp nacelles at this point. However, ejecting an entire warp nacelle when you're travelling way above your maximum rated speed and the ship's already in danger of structural collapse is probably not a great idea; it being a single antimatter storage pod being ejected makes more sense, and is more likely to leave the rest of the ship intact.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Speaking of impulse engines on the Excelsior, I have a vague recollection, when I built one of the old AMT/ERTL kits, that there was a tiny clear plastic piece deeply recessed in between the two main impulse engines. I’m wondering now if this might be a single impulse engine that’s actually attached to the secondary hull via the upper part of the neck. I don’t have the instructions in front of me, but I somehow recall that they said it should be painted red - just like the main impulse engines.

I’m one of those guys who thinks that the warp “engines” merely generate a warp bubble, not propulsion. That’s the impulse engines’ job, to push the ship through space while in warp. TOS’ “Reverse” warp, of course, kind of messes that all up, but I think by TNG they stabilized the tech involved, which remained the same ever since.

 

[Vale]

Speaking of impulse engines on the Excelsior, I have a vague recollection, when I built one of the old AMT/ERTL kits, that there was a tiny clear plastic piece deeply recessed in between the two main impulse engines. I’m wondering now if this might be a single impulse engine that’s actually attached to the secondary hull via the upper part of the neck. I don’t have the instructions in front of me, but I somehow recall that they said it should be painted red - just like the main impulse engines.

I was thinking about this just the other day, when looking for picture references for the Excelsior – I didn't have the Excelsior kit but I did have the Enterprise-B and it had the same odd piece piece. I noticed that there doesn't seem to be a corresponding glowing section on the ship on screen though.

This view of the filming model is inconclusive since it could just be in shadow and the other engines aren't lit; however, if it is an extra impulse engine then it's too high to detach with the neck and secondary hull:

I’m one of those guys who thinks that the warp “engines” merely generate a warp bubble, not propulsion. That’s the impulse engines’ job, to push the ship through space while in warp. TOS’ “Reverse” warp, of course, kind of messes that all up, but I think by TNG they stabilized the tech involved, which remained the same ever since.

That's certainly what Mr Scott's Guide to the Enterprise states. The TNG Technical Manual states that the propulsive effect of warp comes from the sequential and slightly asynchronous energising of the nacelles causing a peristaltic effect with the warp field that drives the ship forwards, since warp is non-Newtonian – which would mean that you could go to warp backwards by just reversing the energising sequence of the warp coils, though this would be less efficient and more dangerous as the navigational deflector would be pointing in the wrong direction. It's possible both are true for different iterations of warp drive technology.

 

[yotsuya]

Incidentally, the intent in TOS: "That Which Survives" is that the ship was rigged to eject its antimatter storage pods rather than the warp core. Which is something also included in Mr Scott's Guide to the Enterprise, and which is also mentioned in the TNG Technical Manual – though this is never mentioned again on screen, even when it would be a viable alternative to warp core ejection failing yet again.

Well, what was actually being talked about was the piece Scotty was in, which was the antimatter feed to the reaction chamber. So it wasn't the storage pods because the antimatter was flowing, not stationary.

Thinking about it, saucer separation should have been a perfectly viable solution in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. We know from the earlier Genesis demonstration video that the effect takes approximately 20 seconds to completely engulf the surface of a planet; assuming that planet is Earth-sized, that suggests the Genesis effect has a propagation speed of approximately 1000km/s, far below full impulse's top speed of around 75,000km/s. As long as you could muster 2% of impulse power you'd be fine. In fact why separate at all, the Enterprise wasn't in imminent danger of blowing itself up, its warp drive was just offline. Just fire up the impulse drive backup reactors and coast to safety.

If that is what you think, then you have failed to grasp the events of the film and the power of the reaction. The ship IS operating on impulse power and cannot get away fast enough without warp power. It is very clear in the film. Very hard to miss so your comment here is very surprising.

 

[yotsuya]

Speaking of impulse engines on the Excelsior, I have a vague recollection, when I built one of the old AMT/ERTL kits, that there was a tiny clear plastic piece deeply recessed in between the two main impulse engines. I’m wondering now if this might be a single impulse engine that’s actually attached to the secondary hull via the upper part of the neck. I don’t have the instructions in front of me, but I somehow recall that they said it should be painted red - just like the main impulse engines.

I’m one of those guys who thinks that the warp “engines” merely generate a warp bubble, not propulsion. That’s the impulse engines’ job, to push the ship through space while in warp. TOS’ “Reverse” warp, of course, kind of messes that all up, but I think by TNG they stabilized the tech involved, which remained the same ever since.

The TOS Enterprise rotated at warp speed. So that doesn't quite fit.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Yeah, I chalk it up to the writers not quite sure how the tech worked back then so they kind of winged it. It’s up there with UESPA vs Starfleet nomenclature confusion, Vulcanians, James R Kirk and Lithium Crystals (and the latter’s locations scattered around the ship throughout the show’s run).

 

[blssdwlf]

The ship IS operating on impulse power and cannot get away fast enough without warp power. It is very clear in the film. Very hard to miss so your comment here is very surprising.

It is doubtful the Enterprise is operating on impulse power. When Kirk and Co. are beamed up Spock reported that only "partial main power" was available and didn't indicate that auxiliary power had been restored. After exchanging phaser fire with Reliant, in the nebula the "mains" were taken off line leaving just battery power.

 

[danellis]

It is doubtful the Enterprise is operating on impulse power. When Kirk and Co. are beamed up Spock reported that only "partial main power" was available and didn't indicate that auxiliary power had been restored. After exchanging phaser fire with Reliant, in the nebula the "mains" were taken off line leaving just battery power.

I'm sure I remember a line bout "maneuvering thrusters only." One of these days I'm gonna actually get how to spell maneuvering without autocorrect.

dJE

 

[yotsuya]

It is doubtful the Enterprise is operating on impulse power. When Kirk and Co. are beamed up Spock reported that only "partial main power" was available and didn't indicate that auxiliary power had been restored. After exchanging phaser fire with Reliant, in the nebula the "mains" were taken off line leaving just battery power.

According to Spock's coded transmission, Auxiliary power would be restored in 2 hours. Knowing how Scotty reports things, that means Auxiliary power AND partial main power have been restored.

 

[Tomalak]

The Enterprise doesn't seem to have full impulse power available at that point - Spock notes the Reliant can outrun them, which is seen when Khan orders "full power". Unless the Reliant is always faster at impulse than the Enterprise, which is possible.

I agree that auxiliary power (i.e. fusion reactors) is available as well as partial main power - obviously enough for phasers but not for warp.

But the point is that any kind of impulse is insufficient to outrun the Genesis detonation. The speed of the Genesis wave on a simulated planet surface is irrelevant, as it's not on a planet. We see at the point of detonation it almost immediately absorbs all the nebula gasses and coalesces into the Genesis planet.

I'm struggling to understand what use separating the saucer would be in this scenario.

 

[blssdwlf]

According to Spock's coded transmission, Auxiliary power would be restored in 2 hours. Knowing how Scotty reports things, that means Auxiliary power AND partial main power have been restored.

In the original coded message it was, "We won't have main power for six days. Auxiliary power has temporarily failed. Restoration may be possible in two days". When Kirk and Co. return to the Enterprise, Spock's update has changed and only says that they have "partial main power". No Auxiliary power was restored.

SPOCK: They're inoperative below C-deck.
KIRK: What is working around here?
SPOCK: Not much, Admiral. We have partial main power.
KIRK: That's it?
SPOCK: Best we could do in two hours.​

Scotty only tells Kirk, "The energiser's bypassed like a Christmas tree, ...so don't give me too many bumps."

But the point is that any kind of impulse is insufficient to outrun the Genesis detonation. The speed of the Genesis wave on a simulated planet surface is irrelevant, as it's not on a planet. We see at the point of detonation it almost immediately absorbs all the nebula gasses and coalesces into the Genesis planet.

I'm struggling to understand what use separating the saucer would be in this scenario.

Yeah given how fast the nebula was absorbed they would have needed a warp speed escape.

The only time it would make sense to discard the engineering hull is if a tractor beam was grabbing just that part and pulling the ship down into a planet like in "The Apple".

 

[David cgc]

Well, we have some idea of how fast they were going when crawling away from the Reliant, Chekov reports that they're 4000 km away three and a half minutes after Khan fired up the Genesis device, so no more than about 19 km/s. Definitely less, actually, because it took them some time to turn away from Reliant, and however close the two ships were were when they started, they weren't occupying the same point in space.

It probably wasn't a power thing, though. Remember, the Reliant has to slow down when they got into the nebula, which the novelization explicates is because the shields don't work in it; going through the gas and dust without deflectors at full impulse would abrade the hull down to nothing pretty quickly. Possibly in less than four minutes, which would be why the Enterprise's "best possible speed" was pretty slow. Considering the stakes were "certain death," if there was any possibility of getting away on sublight, they would've risked severely damaging the ship if it meant they could survive the blast in one piece.

 

[blssdwlf]

Well, we have some idea of how fast they were going when crawling away from the Reliant, Chekov reports that they're 4000 km away three and a half minutes after Khan fired up the Genesis device, so no more than about 19 km/s. Definitely less, actually, because it took them some time to turn away from Reliant, and however close the two ships were were when they started, they weren't occupying the same point in space.

It probably wasn't a power thing, though. Remember, the Reliant has to slow down when they got into the nebula, which the novelization explicates is because the shields don't work in it; going through the gas and dust without deflectors at full impulse would abrade the hull down to nothing pretty quickly. Possibly in less than four minutes, which would be why the Enterprise's "best possible speed" was pretty slow. Considering the stakes were "certain death," if there was any possibility of getting away on sublight, they would've risked severely damaging the ship if it meant they could survive the blast in one piece.

Both the Reliant and Enterprise actually hit the boundary of the Mutara Nebula and pushed in. Even if the shields didn't work, some part of the navigational deflector must've been working since the Enterprise warped out in the end without being ripped apart by the gas and dust. We know that the Reliant had a ton of reserve impulse power since she accelerated instantly when Kirk goaded Khan. Khan's problem was being able to find the Enterprise in the nebula. The Enterprise on partial-main-power however wasn't that fast at all outside or inside the nebula. And when main power went off line the battery power pushing the Enterprise in the thick nebula only moved them a short distance of 4km in ~3.5 minutes which isn't all that fast for them.

edit: corrected my time...

 

[Tomalak]

In the original coded message it was, "We won't have main power for six days. Auxiliary power has temporarily failed. Restoration may be possible in two days". When Kirk and Co. return to the Enterprise, Spock's update has changed and only says that they have "partial main power". No Auxiliary power was restored.

SPOCK: They're inoperative below C-deck.
KIRK: What is working around here?
SPOCK: Not much, Admiral. We have partial main power.
KIRK: That's it?
SPOCK: Best we could do in two hours.​

Scotty only tells Kirk, "The energiser's bypassed like a Christmas tree, ...so don't give me too many bumps."

Obviously we don't exactly know what the code was, beyond "hours would seem like days", which even Khan's intellect should have been able to crack, but I doubt it is meant to be taken at face value.

I always assumed the coded message meant auxiliary power was fine, they were working on main power and would be ready to attempt escape in two hours.

 

[Vale]

Well, what was actually being talked about was the piece Scotty was in, which was the antimatter feed to the reaction chamber. So it wasn't the storage pods because the antimatter was flowing, not stationary.

Because antimatter couldn't flow out of the bottle, and whatever links the reaction chamber with the storage bottles couldn't possibly be considered part of the storage bottle assembly, right?

If that is what you think, then you have failed to grasp the events of the film and the power of the reaction. The ship IS operating on impulse power and cannot get away fast enough without warp power. It is very clear in the film. Very hard to miss so your comment here is very surprising.

Well I wouldn't want to miss the opportunity for you to be condescending and contrary again.

 

[blssdwlf]

Obviously we don't exactly know what the code was, beyond "hours would seem like days", which even Khan's intellect should have been able to crack, but I doubt it is meant to be taken at face value.

I always assumed the coded message meant auxiliary power was fine, they were working on main power and would be ready to attempt escape in two hours.

Let's try the scenario that Scotty restored partial-main-power and that auxiliary power never failed. Remember prior to beaming over to Regula-1, the Enterprise had barely enough auxiliary power to operate her transporters. So let's assume at the time she had both partial-main-power and some auxiliary power when they were making the run to the Mutara Nebula. Spock's analysis was that the Reliant, who only had restored impulse power, can out-run and out-gun the Enterprise.

Or.. Enterprise ("partial-main" + "barely-enough-for-transporters auxiliary") < Reliant ("restored impulse")

When the mains were taken off-line, that left the Enterprise with either very low powered auxiliary + batteries or just the batteries and that would've been significantly less than a relatively intact impulse system than the Reliant's.

So when the Enterprise made that 4km run she at best had very little auxiliary power or was on battery power. In no way was the Enterprise's auxiliary power availability even close to that of her full, undamaged, un-exhausted ability. IMHO.

 

[yotsuya]

Because antimatter couldn't flow out of the bottle, and whatever links the reaction chamber with the storage bottles couldn't possibly be considered part of the storage bottle assembly, right?

Or it has flowed into the next stage of the engine on its way to the main reaction chamber. where in the process is never indicated, but from the placement in the middle of the ship, they are not in what I would consider the storage bottle assembly. They are dealing with the anti-matter feed into the reaction chamber.

Well I wouldn't want to miss the opportunity for you to be condescending and contrary again.

What you said indicates its been a while since you watched that scene because your suggestion about separating the saucer quite obviously isn't a workable solution. I'm sorry if I expect everyone here to be conversant in the greater details of the movies.

 

[Vale]

Or it has flowed into the next stage of the engine on its way to the main reaction chamber. where in the process is never indicated, but from the placement in the middle of the ship, they are not in what I would consider the storage bottle assembly. They are dealing with the anti-matter feed into the reaction chamber.

Well, as long as you don't consider it to be so... Some interpretations of the Constitution refit show the antimatter storage pods to be attached directly to the reaction chamber:

It is not unreasonable to believe that this might be an evolution of what we see in TOS: "That Which Survives", which certainly seems to be at odds with what we know of 24th century warp drives which have the antimatter storage far away from the reaction chamber.

What you said indicates its been a while since you watched that scene because your suggestion about separating the saucer quite obviously isn't a workable solution. I'm sorry if I expect everyone here to be conversant in the greater details of the movies.

Wrong; again with the condescension! I even did calculations to back my argument. As @blssdwlf has also indicated, there is a marked discrepancy in how fast the Enterprise is apparently capable of moving versus how fast it needs to move; and full impulse should have been more than sufficient to clear the nebula ahead of the Genesis effect. A shining example of warp drive being powered (or not) solely by the needs of the plot.

 

[blssdwlf]

Well, as long as you don't consider it to be so... Some interpretations of the Constitution refit show the antimatter storage pods to be attached directly to the reaction chamber:

It is not unreasonable to believe that this might be an evolution of what we see in TOS: "That Which Survives", which certainly seems to be at odds with what we know of 24th century warp drives which have the antimatter storage far away from the reaction chamber.

Based on Scotty's dialogue, it would appear that in "That Which Survives" Scotty was going separate where he is ("access tube leading to the matter-antimatter reaction chamber") and also take the antimatter fuel with him (the "magnetic bottle" reference). In this particular case, this is likely referring to the antimatter fuel feeding the central matter-antimatter reactor instead of the antimatter in the nacelles. IMHO.

SPOCK: As I recall the pattern of our fuel flow, there is an access tube leading to the matter-antimatter reaction chamber.
SCOTT: There's a service crawlway, but it's not meant to be used while the integrator operates.
SPOCK: Still, it is there, and it might be possible to shut off the fuel at that point.
SCOTT: Any matter that comes in contact with antimatter triggers the explosion. And I'm not even sure a man can live in the crawlway in the energy stream of the magnetic field that bottles up the antimatter.
...
SCOTT: I've sealed off the aft end of the service crawlway, and I've positioned explosive separator charges to blast me clear of the ship if I rupture the magnetic bottle.​

I even did calculations to back my argument. As @blssdwlf has also indicated, there is a marked discrepancy in how fast the Enterprise is apparently capable of moving versus how fast it needs to move; and full impulse should have been more than sufficient to clear the nebula ahead of the Genesis effect. A shining example of warp drive being powered (or not) solely by the needs of the plot.

If the Enterprise had undamaged power systems and a full impulse charge, they might have had a chance. As David cgc points out the Genesis wave in the nebula is significantly faster than the planetary wave so a warp speed escape would've been a far better choice...

 

[David cgc]

If the Enterprise had undamaged power systems and a full impulse charge, they might have had a chance. As David cgc points out the Genesis wave in the nebula is significantly faster than the planetary wave so a warp speed escape would've been a far better choice...

I was mostly just thinking about how fast the ship wasn't going, but I should've also mentioned the video we saw was an illustrative simulation, and certainly could've contained both time compression and acceleration to improve clarity and keep pace with the narration. Based on what we saw in practice, the initial wave spreading over the moon could've been slowed down when it would've really been instantaneous on that scale, and the formation of the living environment sped up, since it took at least several minutes in reality, potentially hours before the planet actually settled down into something habitable (though, of course, it never actually stopped forming and settled down, it flew to pieces after weeks developing at millions of times the natural rate).