Neither did Tuvix. He (and Verad Dax) were separated against their will into their component parts, and a unique individual was erased from existence.
Captrek has a valid point.
When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?
- Thread starter Ragitsu
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Neither did Tuvix. He (and Verad Dax) were separated against their will into their component parts, and a unique individual was erased from existence.
Captrek has a valid point.
But that entire situation would never have happened if Verad didn't hold the crew hostage, phaser O'Brien, and STEAL the symbiote from Jadzia.
Tuvix was a total accident. That couldn't be avoided. Verad didn't need to steal Dax.
Tuvix was a total accident. That couldn't be avoided. Verad didn't need to steal Dax.
But he lived...
Exactly. Verad lived.
Verad Dax only existed because Verad stole Dax.
Tuvix only existed because of a very unique transporter accident.
One started off with the intention and full knowledge of killing another Trill.
The other was a freak of nature.
I understand what you are saying, but I completely disagree about it being that similar.
Tuvix only existed because of a very unique transporter accident.
One started off with the intention and full knowledge of killing another Trill.
The other was a freak of nature.
I understand what you are saying, but I completely disagree about it being that similar.
I'm going to say that putting the simbiont back into Jadzia did not put Jadzia Dax back together again.
It created a new yet similar personality.
Jadzia Dax II.
More so how we see how the personalities are managed and organized after the fact by the Simbiont, then both Jadzia's should be represented separately by unique yet similar avatars.
That fact that didn't happen when Ezri and Jadzia did their zhian'tara, is telling.
She is grumpy, and doesn't want to come out, because the other Jadzia Dax got a longer better life.
It created a new yet similar personality.
Jadzia Dax II.
More so how we see how the personalities are managed and organized after the fact by the Simbiont, then both Jadzia's should be represented separately by unique yet similar avatars.
That fact that didn't happen when Ezri and Jadzia did their zhian'tara, is telling.
She is grumpy, and doesn't want to come out, because the other Jadzia Dax got a longer better life.
I suppose the most equitable option would have been to directly ask the Dax symbiont which host it preferred. Presumably it was capable of understanding that choosing Verad would result in Jadzia's death.
...of course, if the symbiont then chose Verad, that would, for me at least, raise a lot of questions concerning the Trill relationship with the symbionts.
By that logic, the closest anyone on Voyager could come to determining the most equitable option for Tuvix would be to ask Tuvix himself, who's the closest thing available to a proxy for Tuvok and Neelix. Assuming he spoke honestly, we already know what his feelings on the matter were.
...of course, if the symbiont then chose Verad, that would, for me at least, raise a lot of questions concerning the Trill relationship with the symbionts.
By that logic, the closest anyone on Voyager could come to determining the most equitable option for Tuvix would be to ask Tuvix himself, who's the closest thing available to a proxy for Tuvok and Neelix. Assuming he spoke honestly, we already know what his feelings on the matter were.
This is yet another wild theory with no basis in the show.
Well, Sisk did ask Verad Dax to consider this…And he said he was fine with Jadzia dying. And yes, this is an interesting insight into the symbiont's morality.
Anyway, I think that a much better Tuvix comparison is with Phage: here Janeway is tasked with a similar conundrum, saving a life at the expense of another, another that condamned Neelix to almost certain death (just like Veerad with Jadzia), yet she reaches the opposite decision (BEFORE the Viidians tell her they might be able to save Neelix after all). Perhaps all she cares about is numbers and saving two people at the expense of one is better than a one on one exchange?
I'm actually wrestling with my latest fanfiction. I'm trying to reproduce how Tuvix would have thought if he had been allowed to live. Would he feel guilty sometimes? Would he wonder if it was right for him to claim his life at the expense of two others? Would he think about T'Pau, and of course Kes? It's quite the conundrum...
Self-preservation, too. The plan was, what, go to the gamma quadrant and live out his life far from Trill society? What kind of future is that for the symbiont? It’s very likely that when Verad dies, Dax dies too. Or, Dax can go back to Jadzia, remain part of Trill society, and always have their choice of highly qualified young hosts whenever the current one dies. It makes no sense that Dax would prefer the gamma quadrant plan.
Maybe Verad was just the dominant personality in the mix, but that doesn’t seem right given how unsure of himself he always was before the merge.
Come to think of it, it’s weird that Dax gave unsure-of-himself Verad instant confidence, but didn’t do the same thing for Ezri.
OK, I’m stumped. I don’t know why Verad Dax was acting that way.
Regarding Tuvix, I never considered it murder. I just said it was an impossible scenario... both were bad options.
"PHAGE" is a much better comparison. While the ending was pretty happy considering, I think if the crew knew she was willing to let them go while Neelix, at that point a member of her crew, was condemned to his fate and almost certainly die... the crew would lose a LOT of faith in her. It basically sends the message that she would rather show mercy to people who attack her crew and steal their organs than protect and defend them.
If that conversation was widely known, the empty cargo bay in "THE 37's" would have been MUCH fuller.
Regarding Ezri, I'm pretty sure it was said that Dax took a turn for the worse and had to be joined immediately, and Ezri was the only Trill on board. She never wanted to be joined to begin with. So it's quite likely Verad was better prepared, especially since he did go through the Symbiosis school.
"PHAGE" is a much better comparison. While the ending was pretty happy considering, I think if the crew knew she was willing to let them go while Neelix, at that point a member of her crew, was condemned to his fate and almost certainly die... the crew would lose a LOT of faith in her. It basically sends the message that she would rather show mercy to people who attack her crew and steal their organs than protect and defend them.
If that conversation was widely known, the empty cargo bay in "THE 37's" would have been MUCH fuller.
Regarding Ezri, I'm pretty sure it was said that Dax took a turn for the worse and had to be joined immediately, and Ezri was the only Trill on board. She never wanted to be joined to begin with. So it's quite likely Verad was better prepared, especially since he did go through the Symbiosis school.
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Verad was undoubtedly better prepared. Plus, he had researched symbionts, and discovered that he and Dax were well matched. Ezri was (1) about six or seven years too young, (2) completely untrained, and (3) wasn't as good a match with the Dax slug, they were thrown together at random. As Jadzia said, an improper joining could cause permanent damage to both parties.
yes, this was another odd detail. However, given the relative ease in which even alien doctors have been able to execute joinings, I guess he could have returned a few decades later to look for another disgruntled Trill to join with.
perhaps veerad’s obsession at becoming joined was so strong it took over the will of the symbiont? No idea, honestly, but it’s as a good an explanation as any.
The Symbiosis commission stacks the deck. They claim that only two percent of the population can Join successfully. It's actually %50. What does a bad join look like? Sure the personalities could collapse, and you're just looking at a mountain of sod instead of a person, as the worst case scenario, but where there's 98 ways out of a hundred that everything could go wrong, or it's 50 ways out of a hundred that every thing could go wrong, how do they define "wrong"? Maybe one of the other hosts takes over, or maybe the symbiont takes over? And why wouldn't they if they could, if the alternative is living death?
Janeway's final argument to herself was Tuvok's wife T'Pel might be sad, even though Vulcans suppress their emotions, and she already thinks Tuvok is dead, and who in 70 years when their descendants get the ship home, will probably be dead herself.
You have a library card?
If you get the same book out 6 times, are the librarians going to say that you took the book out 6 times or once?
When Tom Riker rejoined Starfleet, should he have gotten Will Riker's rank?
Those weird people who remarry the same person again years after a terrible divorce, because they are different, and they are sure that they can make it work now.
The tenth Doctor died and half regenerated back into the tenth Doctor, and Donna, and a severed hand. Because his face didn't change, no one cared or thought that it counted to the final count of 12 regenerations, but it did, and he ran out of lives, and all seemed lost...
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