How did Commodore Stocker get his rank?

[puzzledtea]

Watching deadly years for the first time in ages, I'm wondering how with just none or limited command experience would Stocker have become a Commodore?

I'd always guessed that climbing up the ranks that someone would have to spend X years as a commander or captain first to gain leadership skills. Like how Spock had his first time on the Galileo for example.

Perhaps Commodore ranks are treated differently than the rank to admiral? Or maybe after the events of this episode is why Starfleet phased them seemingly out by the 24th century. (Nothing against the guy, he seemed nice enough lol)

 

[fireproof78]

Others who are far more experienced than I will comment but my understanding was basically Stocker had been in an administrative/support role, moving up in the ranks to manage resources and logistics. What would, in today's navy, be called a support or staff officer, vs. a line officer with combat experience.

Obviously TOS played a little bit different than a real world navy would but basically Stocker stepped in as the most senior ranking officer and took command. Now, this is something that gets played up for drama a lot (MASH did it a couple of times) were because the officer is a higher rank they can step in to a combat situation and give orders. This doesn't recognize that officers can rank up in other capacities, i.e. logistics, medical, support staff.

 

[Spike730]

It‘s called the Peter principle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

 

[Sir Rhosis]

Different MOSs then as now.

Sir Rhosis

 

[J.T.B.]

Even though they play up the naval side, there also sometimes seem to be some lines of thinking that go to more of an air force model. People would have been fairly familiar with WW2 movies and broad ideas of "air" and "ground" personnel. The term "ground assignment" was actually used in "Court Martial." Stocker could have come up through the "ground" side, dealing with ship maintenance, materiel, logistics or stuff like that. It still doesn't make perfect sense to me, but that may have been the thinking.

 

[Herbert]

Watching deadly years for the first time in ages, I'm wondering how with just none or limited command experience would Stocker have become a Commodore?

There are many ways to gain leadership experience. Command of a ship is only one of those. There are many real world examples of high ranking military officials that were clearly leaders but were not combat leaders. Why should a Star Trek commodore be any different? On the one hand you have Commodore Decker, an experienced and (presumably) able combat officer with command of his own ship. On the other hand, you have Stocker, who clearly was an administrative commodore only.

 

[puzzledtea]

I should've added my knowledge of how ranks work in modern day, or not so modern army/navy/air force is not great to start with. Definitely learned some stuff from all your replies already =)

I guess part from my not knowing, and seeing characters in the 24th century series being all about getting on the command track it does seem to filter out the people in Starfleet who just want to work up the ranks via their own fields.

It‘s called the Peter principle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

Ive never heard of this before exactly, idk if it's a UK thing but it's something I've heard referred to people as "falling upwards" into a promotion. Said that about politicians here sometimes lol. I get how he could have possibly reached his rank now.

He really shouldn't have been in command imo with that experience level. But I wonder if he could've chose someone else still? I understand some real life issues might've stopped this but Uhura could've probably managed - though the episode would lose its drama that way.

 

[fireproof78]

though the episode would lose its drama that way.

Which is the purpose, of course, is to create drama. M*A*S*H did this too, having a Supply Officer at the rank of Lieutenant Colonel barking orders and getting people injured as a result. It's funny because the show would often acknowledge that staff officers, like the surgeons, couldn't order line soldiers around as much as they wanted too. So, it was to build drama, with Stocker basically sitting in as the "clueless desk jockey."

 

[Henoch]

Stone wore a red shirt but at one time, he commanded a Starship at one time in his career. Stocker wears red but seems incapable of starship command. Stocker might have served on a Starfleet space ship like a tug, but most of his career might have been in administrative duties on Starbases, hence his posting to Starbase 10. It is clear that he is unfamiliar with Starships and The Neutral Zone. Both Stocker and Kirk discuss the lesson learned:

STOCKER: Captain, I just wanted to assure you that I did what I thought best to save you and the men.
KIRK: Noted. You should know, however, that there's very little a Starbase can do that a starship can't.
STOCKER: If I may say so, Captain, I am now quite aware of what a starship can do with the right man at the helm.​

Lessons:
1. Starships are the top resource of the Federation, with the brightest and best crew.
2. Starship Captains are the very best officers in Starfleet. (That is until they go crazy.)
3. Stay out of the Neutral Zone. It's a dangerous war zone.

Now that Stocker has Starbase 10, I can see him give top priorities for Starships that pull into base, and roll out the red carpet for their Captains.

 

[Phaser Two]

Stocker was a commodore because he had risen up through the ranks serving at a starbase, and was now slated to command one. That doesn't mean that he could command a starship (as we saw) or indeed any Starfleet vessel. Think of the commander of a naval base in the modern world; s/he couldn't necessarily take over command of an aircraft carrier. (I'm aware that the USN does cross-pollinate to some extent such that base commanders are indeed very often former ship captains, but not all are, and in fact many USN admirals come from procurement, not warfare.)

Two more observations: as Henoch sagely notes above and as I (less sagely no doubt ) have noted in the past regarding this issue, Stocker wore red, which may indicate that he was an engineer or some other sort of operations officer. (Commodore Stone wearing red is less obviously explicable. Maybe he was an engineer or some sort of operations officer before he rose to command - like if Scotty had changed his focus because of his utterly awesome talent for command - and when CDRE Stone got a starbase command, he opted or requested to wear red as a result.)

Also, it's entirely possible that CDRE Stocker commanded a vessel smaller than the Enterprise. Kirk implies that Stocker was a desk jockey (without checking I think it was "desk-bound paper-pusher"), but he was angry and ill at the time. All Spock says, I believe, is that Stocker has never commanded a starship - - he may, however, have commanded some other sort of vessel. (Note that I have never subscribed to the theory that Starfleet in Kirk's time had only starships and no other types of combat vessels.)

 

[BK613]

Stone wore a red shirt but at one time, he commanded a Starship at one time in his career. Stocker wears red but seems incapable of starship command. Stocker might have served on a Starfleet space ship like a tug, but most of his career might have been in administrative duties on Starbases, hence his posting to Starbase 10. It is clear that he is unfamiliar with Starships and The Neutral Zone. Both Stocker and Kirk discuss the lesson learned:

STOCKER: Captain, I just wanted to assure you that I did what I thought best to save you and the men.
KIRK: Noted. You should know, however, that there's very little a Starbase can do that a starship can't.
STOCKER: If I may say so, Captain, I am now quite aware of what a starship can do with the right man at the helm.​

Lessons:
1. Starships are the top resource of the Federation, with the brightest and best crew.
2. Starship Captains are the very best officers in Starfleet. (That is until they go crazy.)
3. Stay out of the Neutral Zone. It's a dangerous war zone.

Now that Stocker has Starbase 10, I can see him give top priorities for Starships that pull into base, and roll out the red carpet for their Captains.

The last comment made by the description of Kirk in the 1967 Writer's Guide seems relevant:
""...the often lonely role of command, even lonelier because Starship command is the most difficult and demanding task of his century."

 

[Neopeius]

(Commodore Stone wearing red is less obviously explicable. Maybe he was an engineer or some sort of operations officer before he rose to command - like if Scotty had changed his focus because of his utterly awesome talent for command - and when CDRE Stone got a starbase command, he opted or requested to wear red as a result.)

We talked a bit about what colors might have meant at mid-1st season, settling on "Line", "Engineering", and "Staff".

But even wearing "staff" blue, Spock is a line officer, and Kirk is tried in "Courtmartial" by peers in all colors. It also seems that one swaps uniform colors for what is most appropriate for the day (or sometimes keeps on their old colors even in a new role -- viz. Riley in engineering).

Anyway, it may well be that Stone's red is tied to his logistical role running a starbase rather than the way he got to starship captaincy. Or your theory may be right. [/QUOTE]

 

[Phaser Two]

We talked a bit about what colors might have meant at mid-1st season, settling on "Line", "Engineering", and "Staff".

But even wearing "staff" blue, Spock is a line officer, and Kirk is tried in "Courtmartial" by peers in all colors. It also seems that one swaps uniform colors for what is most appropriate for the day (or sometimes keeps on their old colors even in a new role -- viz. Riley in engineering).

Anyway, it may well be that Stone's red is tied to his logistical role running a starbase rather than the way he got to starship captaincy. Or your theory may be right.

"Staff" for the sciences and medical personnel? Interesting. Why not sciences?

Since you mentioned "Court Martial," I was always intrigued by the sciences-division captain on the board (Krasnowsky?). I suppose he might have commanded a research or scientific vessel, hence the blue.

 

[Neopeius]

"Staff" for the sciences and medical personnel? Interesting. Why not sciences?

At the time of our suppositions, we'd seen Dr. McCoy and Mr. Spock consistently wear blue, as well as geologist Fisher and a few others. Aside from Mr. Spock (whose blue seemed related to being Science Officer), the only consistency seemed to be that they weren't "line", neither were they "engineering et. al." The logical, '60s-era extrapolation was "staff" officer.

Since you mentioned "Court Martial," I was always intrigued by the sciences-division captain on the board (Krasnowsky?). I suppose he might have commanded a research or scientific vessel, hence the blue.

Certainly a possibility. But as a "peer" one would assume he headed a Star Ship (tm) so perhaps he was a Spock-type, or maybe he is currently serving as Deputy Underminister of Research for Star Fleet.

 

[Phaser Two]

I like Deputy Underminister! And hey, no one is JTK's peer, honestly.

As for your other point, at the time of your discussion, hadn't you seen Chapel in What Are Little Girls Made Of, Helen Noel, poor Joey Tormolen, and Dehner? Boma? Not to mention Spock and McCoy of course. I just don't see where you got "staff" from that - but it's interesting!

 

[Neopeius]

I like Deputy Underminister! And hey, no one is JTK's peer, honestly.

As for your other point, at the time of your discussion, hadn't you seen Chapel in What Are Little Girls Made Of, Helen Noel, poor Joey Tormolen, and Dehner? Boma? Not to mention Spock and McCoy of course. I just don't see where you got "staff" from that - but it's interesting!

Staff just means "not in the line of command nor in the engineering/damage control limited line"

It includes scientists and doctors, but could also include lots of other non-line, non-greasy positions. Do we know what Tormolen's job was?

 

[Phaser Two]

Staff just means "not in the line of command nor in the engineering/damage control limited line"

It includes scientists and doctors, but could also include lots of other non-line, non-greasy positions. Do we know what Tormolen's job was?

Well, given that confusing dialogue where poor Joey implies that Spock's his boss (the "you don't rank me and you don't have pointed ears" line to Sulu) as well as the fact that he went with Spock to pick up a scientific party and that Spock seemed to know him very well, I always figured he was a scientist of some sort.

Your "non-greasy" jobs observation hits closer to the mark for me now that you've explained further, but Rand and even Uhura arguably had those sorts of jobs, too, and wore red. Janice actually almost perfectly fits what you described. So I'll agree to disagree with your group's analysis. I think if I had watched in production or airdate order originally (I didn't; I don' t remember for sure, but I'm *almost* positive that I first saw S3 episodes as a kid), I would have concluded that blueshirts were the scientists and the redshirts were the catchall group. By S3, that was more obvious.

 

[fireproof78]

I think it was a byproduct of me watching episodes with the trusty concordance in my lap but I always took it as Line, Sciences and Ship Services. Service functions basically ensuring that the day to day functioning of the ship was seen too, either scheduling (yeoman), engineering, security, and other logistics. To me, Stocker would basically be a logistics officer who had ranked up through administrative functions.

 

[Kor]

Just for real world comparison, in the US Navy, a Supply Corps officer can go all the way up to Vice Admiral rank (three stars). Vice Admirals fill specific roles that require the rank. Someone from the Supply Corps would become a Vice Admiral to be the head/chief of a logistics/materials/supply/systems support type of agency. But as staff officers (there's that term again) they would have no command authority over ships, despite also being flag officers.

Of course, Starfleet is different.

Kor

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Watching deadly years for the first time in ages, I'm wondering how with just none or limited command experience would Stocker have become a Commodore?

The same way as The Right Hon. Sir John Porter, KCB, First Lord of the Admiralty did.
(that's a YouTube link to an amateur production)

. . .
He thought so little, they rewarded he
By making him the Ruler of the Queens's Navy.
. . .
Stick close to your desks and NEVER go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of the Queen's Navy!

(If Starfleet has [according to Riker, in "The Arsenal of Freedom"] has a USS Lollipop ["it's a good ship"], then it probably has a HMS USS Pinafore.)