That is easily fixed if one decides to go that route.
Would you like me to send you a clip on tie so you can reject the bad design?
Casual clothes TNG to PIC - from terrible to far too 2020s?
- Thread starter Phil123
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Would you like me to send you a clip on tie so you can reject the bad design?
Generally speaking I am wearing polos or flannel, depending on the season.
Suit and ties are special occasions. And fun.
I've always hated the Tie portion of the Suits, they're so uncomfortable when wrapped around your neck.
*shrugs* You learn different knots and find one that's comfortable or shift to clip ons.
There is so much variety in suits that I have no issue going tieless, save for very formal occasions. Other than that, I just like the feel of a nice suit.
To me, saying that the clothes in ST ought to look "futuristic" is like arguing that they should not be speaking conventional modern English. It is certainly true that in 400 years, English will almost certainly be different in vocabulary and structure than it is today. But trying to predict what English will sound like in 400 years is a fool's errand, and there's a point where stylizing yourself in an attempt at plausible realism can actually turn off the aesthetic preferences of a large portion of the audience and thereby break verisimilitude. (Yes, that's right -- too much realism can be perceived as unrealistic.)
Better by far to just suspend our disbelief and accept that everyone's going to speak some version of contemporary English -- and that their fashion choices won't be too far from modern aesthetics either.
Better by far to just suspend our disbelief and accept that everyone's going to speak some version of contemporary English -- and that their fashion choices won't be too far from modern aesthetics either.
Honestly, what I would be curious about, especially in this thread, is what people would consider to be futuristic. So far, what I have seen is a categorical rejection of "contemporary" clothes (though suit and tie styles goes back a lot longer than just the evil 21st century) but I would be curious to know what makes some "futuristic?" Is it materials, as @Arpy alluded to? Defensive capability, or bullet proof? Wouldn't that be impressive? Could also ruin the drama too.
There's ultimately no right answer on this question of how stylized you want to be, because what looks "futuristic" one decade might look like a ridiculous throwback the next.
I will say that in general, I think Babylon 5's depiction of future fashion worked better than Star Trek's -- but not always! Their depiction of formal wear (particularly 23rd Century men's formal wear -- combining the collars of Zhongshan suits with the Western dress shirts, adding a mildly stylized collar to the business jacket, with an occasional necktie) usually works a lot better than Berman-era Star Trek's depiction of the same, combining a plausible evolution of fashion (combining Western and Asian influences) without coming across as so stylized as to register as camp. But their depiction of future men's casual wear often comes across as cringe today! So even a show that manages to find a good balance in depicting one type of future fashion can come across as very gouche just a few decades later.
I will say that in general, I think Babylon 5's depiction of future fashion worked better than Star Trek's -- but not always! Their depiction of formal wear (particularly 23rd Century men's formal wear -- combining the collars of Zhongshan suits with the Western dress shirts, adding a mildly stylized collar to the business jacket, with an occasional necktie) usually works a lot better than Berman-era Star Trek's depiction of the same, combining a plausible evolution of fashion (combining Western and Asian influences) without coming across as so stylized as to register as camp. But their depiction of future men's casual wear often comes across as cringe today! So even a show that manages to find a good balance in depicting one type of future fashion can come across as very gouche just a few decades later.
No, obviously there is no right answer. But, I find it odd, extremely and frustratingly so, that the discussion of future fashion boils down to "Because I like how it looks! That's why!" It's like, OK, but that doesn't tell me much other than future fashion will involve extremely bright colors, and odd patterns.
Not deliberate, no.
You’d just said that you didn’t like the close-fitted outfits like they’re not how people would dress, so I pointed out such outfits that we wear today. If that isn’t your point, please clarify?Ok???
So, because of my response on yoga pants you assume a prudish stance in regards to fashion. Because that is how it came across.
Or you could do what they did in Trek and have the language be a little heightened and unusual as a placeholder for future speak. It’s the attempt that matters, not how close you get to predicting the distant future. If the language and the outfits are better contemporary and and suspension of disbelief broadened that far, why not make the starships naval ships and the aliens foreigners and set it in the present? No, seriously, why not just watch contemporary fiction?
Again, I don’t get how insane-looking aliens, time-travel, and floating macroviruses are hunky dory, but if people are not dressed in something out of the Sears catalogue, it’s too much.
Because that is contemporary fashion to people from our past.
I will clarify. My point is that a unitard strikes me as eminently impractical as far as dress, and the tendency for future fashion to be tight fitting, with minimal variation, strikes me as unlikely. That said, tight fitting outfits being in fashion wouldn't surprise. It's the combination of factors, one piece, tight fitting, impractical, and ugly, that all stands out. It is not me being prudish. I'd rather future fashion be nude or functional, not impractical and garish.
It's a fine line. If I am noticing fashion (something I did a lot with Trek's civilian wear) then it pulls me out of the show.
That really doesn't answer the question. So, apparently it just a matter of perspective and I will have to accept that fact that I don't get it. That's not new.
Or the drama could fit the setting. It’s not like as long as there are people there isn’t going to be drama. The lack of 21st century trappings will not mean the end of human suffering.
Futuristic clothes means new materials that, like my non-wrinkle khakis, do things old clothes couldn’t. And it means unusual styles that speak to the sensibilities of the people wearing them like contemporary designs speak to us.
They should be clues into the psyches of the future cultures just as the esthetics of their ships or the games they play or the music they listen to.
But how do you create that and still keep a contemporary audience, who lacks that sensibility, engaged? To me, it pretty much means that people could run around in what we would call carpeting but because it is the future it's fine? It feels very haphazard to me, with the only justification being 'the future."
Star Trek had a very deliberate idea for civilian clothes-loud, outlandish and tight fitting. For me, it was the extremes that felt very dated. Instead of a mix of ideas in the fashion sense, it was just tight. And, to me, that's not future focused. It's random. I would have to review possible episodes but things like Korby's jumpsuit, or Tasha Yar's sister's outfit, or Sisko's off duty wear all struck me just odd.
Maybe that's the point. Maybe it is to be off-putting to contemporary audiences. If so, I feel it distracts from the drama.
This has gotten heavy! Particularly on the topic of ties.
I watched The Search for Spock tonight with two friends. They loved the casual jackets and hated the rest of the outfits.
In regards to some comments above, I do agree that you can’t go too far, it will take contemporary audiences out of the show. But I think the envelope needs a bit more pushing than it gets now.
I watched The Search for Spock tonight with two friends. They loved the casual jackets and hated the rest of the outfits.
In regards to some comments above, I do agree that you can’t go too far, it will take contemporary audiences out of the show. But I think the envelope needs a bit more pushing than it gets now.
1) That is just as unrealistic as having them speak in modern English vernacular. Human beings will never always speak in prescriptivist language -- vernacular always develops, because it is a fundamental mechanism for human bonding.
2) Using prescriptivist English in a context in which real people would not plausibly speak that way risks alienating a large portion of your audience. It signals a lack of emotional and psychological realism and makes it harder to emotionally connect with the character. I think it's worth considering that the most popular iteration of Star Trek remains TOS, the version where only one character speaks prescriptivist English -- and he has a distinct character reason for doing so, since he's coded as neuroatypical. In fact, the most beloved characters who do speak in this manner are ones who are coded as neuroatypical -- Data, Spock, Seven of Nine, etc.
3) The idea that speaking in formal, prescriptivist English is "heightened" or "elevated" is a classist idea, and Star Trek should not support the idea that some varieties of English are "better" or "superior" to others if Star Trek wants to support the ideals of equality and diversity.
No one has said that. But there's always a balance between stylization and not undermining verisimilitude by activating the audience's "camp" button. Imagination is good, but there is a such thing as becoming so styilzed that most of the audience can no longer engage with the material.
I really don’t think it’s all that hard. I mean do people smack their foreheads at the outfits in Lord of the Rings? It’s fantasy and people roll with it. Or just go to da club. People are wearing all sorts of outrageous outfits. There’s no way around it. It doesn’t have to actually appear like a future outfit, just an attempt at the feeling of one. And there’s pretty interesting looking a lot of the time. We love pointing out the ridiculous outfits but damn I wish a lot of the others were standard wear today. Actors love putting on funky space suits and getting to play, and we love watching it. Or genre entertainment — sci-fi, fantasy, superhero — would not be the juggernaut it is today.
But to put sometime in a suit…I’m immediately taken out of the narrative and rolling my eyes. That’s my reaction. I’m no longer watching the 24th century but Patrick Stewart in a Hollywood TV show made by an unimaginative set of contemporary filmmakers. And that saddens me.
Denim.
I think in Star Trek: Enterprise we see people wearing jeans, but I've always thought it a weird science fiction thing that people in the future never wear jeans. It's like the secret to denim will be lost at some point. I just imagine that even in the 2200s or 2300s, some humans will be wearing jeans.
I think in Star Trek: Enterprise we see people wearing jeans, but I've always thought it a weird science fiction thing that people in the future never wear jeans. It's like the secret to denim will be lost at some point. I just imagine that even in the 2200s or 2300s, some humans will be wearing jeans.
I think part of what you're speaking to is the question of context for each scene.
If the context is that the character is in a very casual environment and aren't trying to attract a lot of attention to themselves through their clothing choices, then having them wear clothes that are "loud" (like, say, most of poor Cirroc Lofton's costumes) breaks verisimilitude, because the apparent artistic goal of the clothing does not match the apparent artistic goal of the environment.
Whereas, if Jake is wearing his Greyhound upholstery outfit when he's going to a 24th Century dance club or a night at Quark's Bar, it makes a lot more sense and doesn't pull people out of the narrative so much.
Something that pulls me out of the narrative right away is if I see characters in a context where they ought to be wearing formal wear, but the costume doesn't register as formal wear because it's so stylized away from modern contexts. It just comes across as camp, because it draws too much attention to itself and forces the actor to fight against their own costume to keep the audience invested in the actual performance. I'm not saying it needs to just be a totally contemporary suit, but it shouldn't be so stylized that it draws attention away from the scene.
All of Star Trek: Enterprise's uniforms were made from denim!
